My 8 yr old boy cat had PU surgery last week - he had 6 calcium oxalate stones removed, 2 from the ureter & 4 in the bladder. He’s been on Hills c/d food for 1.5 years now & the vet wants him exclusively on this. He won’t eat the c/d wet. I would like to give him low carb wet food (not c/d), but I don’t want to go against the vet. Should I get a 2nd opinion? I wish I could get a recommendation from Cornell, New Bolton, etc. Is there a way to do this? I told the vet I was concerned about the c/d ingredients not being the best & the reply was " you can’t just look at the ingredients, it’s the formulation". I hate second guessing, but I want the best for my little man, especially after the surgery. Suggestions?
I would also use distilled water. For some reason my area is really prevalent for blocked cats and my one vet always recommends using distilled water.
Was he getting the c/d exclusively before surgery?
I have a dog on Hills U/D for calcium oxalate stones. It’s managed well with the prescription food and a lot of weight loss (she was 37 lbs when I adopted her and is now a slim 26) and plenty of water (the dogs get filtered water).
There’s a thread somewhere in the spring where I was asking about changing her diet, the general recommendation was to stick with it.
Hill’s X/D was designed for calcium oxalate stones, IIRC, but they pulled it off the market some years ago. Frankly, if the cat developed CO stones on the C/D I would NOT keep the cat on C/D, as that particular diet obviously did not prevent the formation in the first place.
But I am not a vet and calcium oxalate stones are not very forgiving, as they won’t dissolve on their own, so no suggestions from me about what TO feed.
Ken, is there another vet you can go to for a second opinion? Or perhaps you could call a large referral hospital that has a feline nutritionist on staff and get a consultation? I think your concerns are very, very valid and I would be asking the same questions, but your current vet seems to be out of ideas.
Good luck!
http://www.vet.cornell.edu/FHC/camuti.cfm
Cornell consultation service.
Do you have a feline only practice near you? I don’t think they’re too common where I am, but if you do it might be a place to turn for a 2nd opinion.
Are you feeding the C/D only…is she getting anything else?
Evo 95% is a good option. It is what I try to get my feline patients on. I will not feed any of the prescription food to my own pets.
[QUOTE=Marshfield;6835128]
Evo 95% is a good option. It is what I try to get my feline patients on. I will not feed any of the prescription food to my own pets.[/QUOTE]
I fed EVO to my cats and dogs for years and years (and Innova before that) but stopped shortly after the P&G purchase. Although they say the food hasn’t changed, it started looking very different and my cats all started refusing to eat.
I now feed Before Grain 96% meat canned and recently put one cat on Hound & Gatos 96% meat canned, since she needed a novel protein. I’ve been very happy with both brands.
Oooh, thanks for the tip. Hounds and Gatos is a new one to me.
This first link is pretty simplistic, and geared toward humans, but both cats and humans are mammals after all.
http://my.clevelandclinic.org/disorders/kidney_stone/hic_oxalate-controlled_diet.aspx
This one is a scientific abstract, and if this is as major as this (not an MD or DVM layperson believes), the oxalate formation could be related to a relative deficiency of magnesium:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7062446 especially note the ‘Intratubular calcium oxalate monohydrate deposits were found in magnesium deficient rats after only 24 hours of ad libitum administration of 1 per cent ethylene glycol drinking water. Animals on regular food diet did not display renal tubular deposition after 11 days of ethylene glycol administration’.
What was very interesting to me in reading that is that ethylene glycol was used as their inducing oxalate formation. Many commercial pet foods contain propylene glycol but I am not good enough in chemistry to know if they have any similarity of effect.
I looked at the ingredients for Hills and do not see any supplemental magnesium in it: http://www.hillspet.com/products/pd-feline-cd-multicare-feline-bladder-health-with-chicken-dry.html
I agree with the person who observed that, as the diet has not prevented the problem in the past, there is not much likelihood it will in the future. Change Vets or change diet, or both.
I used the stone-dissolving diet when my cat was recovering, but switched to Tractor Supply’s 4Health indoor brand (as I have three other cats and no isolated feeding) and he’s done incredibly well on it-no recurring stones. Now they’ve introduced a 4Health 100% grain-free and I’m transitioning them onto that. A little more value for money, and it seems to keep everyone functioning.
[QUOTE=danceronice;6835335]
I used the stone-dissolving diet when my cat was recovering, but switched to Tractor Supply’s 4Health indoor brand (as I have three other cats and no isolated feeding) and he’s done incredibly well on it-no recurring stones. Now they’ve introduced a 4Health 100% grain-free and I’m transitioning them onto that. A little more value for money, and it seems to keep everyone functioning.[/QUOTE]
Struvite stones–the kind that dissolve–are a WHOLE different creature than calcium oxalate stones, which do not dissolve with diet change once they are formed. IIRC, you do NOT want to feed a calcium oxalate cat a struvite diet, as a struvite diet will actually contribute to the formation of calcium oxalate stones in a cat that is prone.
The food you mention might be totally okay for a calcium oxalate cat, but just because your struvite cat is doing well on it and not developing stones absolutely does NOT mean you can say it’s okay for a cat with calcium oxalate stones. The food should be evaluated from a calcium oxalate stone perspective before given to a cat prone to those.
Have you looked into the Royal Canin diets?
[QUOTE=SarahKing;6835520]
Have you looked into the Royal Canin diets?[/QUOTE]
I’d second this.
Feed what you feel comfortable feeding. If your cat doesnt like the food, well, thats no quality of life. If you arent liking the prescription diets or royal canin (or other vet recommended diets) then dont feed them. If your cat runs in to troubles later then you can cross that bridge when you get there, or you may not run in to any problems and your cat will eat a food you like.
Personally, I have seen a lot of cats do well on specific urinary diets, but once they have the PU surgery, if its done well, there is a lot less chance of obstructions again unless you cat actually developes stones. (Usually its just sludge from crystals that cause obstructions…but not always). Dissolution diets for struvites are in my opinion more important than a specific diet for CO crystals. DO monitor urine frequently, including sediments, specific gravity and pH. You can get dipsticks for at home where you can ensure the pH is staying in the range you want it while playing with different foods. It can also give you a semi-accurate reading on Specific gravity.
If you find a food you like, you may just need to add some pH buffer to the food - and of course add extra water to ensure the cat is producing more dilute urine.
Please, I understand your desire to change your cat’s food, but please do not do so based on a message board conversation. Please do consult another vet first -a holistic vet perhaps, but do consult a vet. This is tenuous stuff. I changed the food on my cats but Pippin had struvite crystals not oxalate. Completely different stuff.
Paula
I believe at this point the Hill’s CD is supposed to take care of both struvite and calcium oxalate crystals. They used to have a different food for calcium oxalate crystals but I think they stopped that. I don’t really understand how it works…
One of my cats had 3 calcium oxalate stones and apparently TONS of crystals- he gets exclusively Royal Canin Urinary S/O. And I can’t separate the cats for feeding- so all 3 downstairs cats are getting it. I also feed my 2 upstairs cats the dry food because one had an idiopathic cystitis and one of the things that can help with that is a this diet. So everyone gets it. It’s not cheap. It is a lot cheaper than vet bills when 1 of my cats is painful and sick.
Thanks for all the info! From the size of the stones, we think they were present before he was put on c/d. I’m going to use the Cornell reference & we go back to the vet on Monday for suture removal, so I’ll pick the vet’s brain then. I just want a wet food alternative to the c/d wet (b/c he won’t eat it).
As an aside, I believe there is a genetic component to this. My cat was 1 of 3 barn kittens I rescued. I have his sister who has idiopathic hypercalcemia - she is doing really well on the c/d. My friend has his brother, who was raised on different food & also had a blockage. I thought barn cat converts were supposed to be healthy - at least they are cute! Thanks again !
[QUOTE=ken;6836023]
As an aside, I believe there is a genetic component to this. My cat was 1 of 3 barn kittens I rescued. I have his sister who has idiopathic hypercalcemia - she is doing really well on the c/d. My friend has his brother, who was raised on different food & also had a blockage. I thought barn cat converts were supposed to be healthy - at least they are cute! Thanks again ![/QUOTE]
Lol, the only cat who gets sick is the one who was literally born in the barn! The others (two ex-strays/dumps and one who was seized from a “kitten collector” in a house with sixty cats :eek: ) never are sick a moment. The one I’ve known since birth who’s always had shots and vet visits and has mostly lived indoors? The one who got the UTI/blockage and the fever of unknown origins.
For water, how many bowls do you have? I need to have FOUR filled all the time because everyone gets picky about which one they want to use and sometimes the cats go on a wet-food strike.
[QUOTE=ken;6834642]
Should I get a 2nd opinion? I wish I could get a recommendation from Cornell, New Bolton, etc. Is there a way to do this? I told the vet I was concerned about the c/d ingredients not being the best & the reply was " you can’t just look at the ingredients, it’s the formulation". I hate second guessing, but I want the best for my little man, especially after the surgery. Suggestions?[/QUOTE]
Nothing wrong with getting a second opinion. Although New Bolton Center isn’t going to help you. 
UPenn’s cat & dog hospital is the Ryan Veterinary Hospital in Philly: http://www.vet.upenn.edu/Default.aspx?alias=www.vet.upenn.edu/ryanveterinaryhospital
I hope your kitty is better soon.
