[QUOTE=supershorty628;6940999]
I think it has much less to do with cup depth and much more to do with rider skill.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think so. Why are cups at lower levels deeper then? Wouldn’t be safer for all back rails of oxers to have safety cups?
[QUOTE=supershorty628;6940999]
I think it has much less to do with cup depth and much more to do with rider skill.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think so. Why are cups at lower levels deeper then? Wouldn’t be safer for all back rails of oxers to have safety cups?
Safety cups are breakaway cups - they come off the standard if you hit the rail the right way (or hard enough). It has nothing to do with depth. And safety cups are used in all the jumper classes at the shows I go to.
You use shallow/flat cups as a test for that extra degree of carefulness and freakish athleticism. It’s a test for both the horse and rider, but not a test you’re going to put into the lower levels where (theoretically) people are learning how to do the jumpers and where you additionally have the potential for young horses moving up or seasoned campaigners moving down.
I maintain that it has little to do with cup depth and much to do with rider skill level. YMMV.
[QUOTE=supershorty628;6941088]
Safety cups are breakaway cups - they come off the standard if you hit the rail the right way (or hard enough). It has nothing to do with depth. And safety cups are used in all the jumper classes at the shows I go to.
You use shallow/flat cups as a test for that extra degree of carefulness and freakish athleticism. It’s a test for both the horse and rider, but not a test you’re going to put into the lower levels where (theoretically) people are learning how to do the jumpers and where you additionally have the potential for young horses moving up or seasoned campaigners moving down.
I maintain that it has little to do with cup depth and much to do with rider skill level. YMMV.[/QUOTE]
Right, that makes sense. I agree, but I also think some kind of precautionary measure should be taken at lower levels. It seems to me that riding is safer at the upper levels…but then again that also has to do with skill. I still feel most rotationals in show jumping are mostly due to distance
So it looks like the common theme here is rider skill. That certainly makes sense considering less skilled riders make the horse’s job harder and are less likely to pick up on things that need to be tweaked or know how to fix it, as they are approaching a fence.
[QUOTE=Caligirl123;6941066]
I don’t think so. Why are cups at lower levels deeper then? Wouldn’t be safer for all back rails of oxers to have safety cups?[/QUOTE]
At all Hunter, Jumper and Eventing competitions, safety cups ARE required on the back rail of ALL oxers, regardless of height.
[QUOTE=JackieBlue;6940871]
PLEASE don’t take this as unkind criticism. Since you posted it here where discussion of rotational falls is taking place, it seems appropriate to comment on likely causes. First, I wouldn’t consider it a rotational fall. But if you watch closely, you’re dropping your right hand as early as the turn and it stays low at take off. Then, your body is parallel to the horse’s neck long before she can get her leading (RF) leg out of the way. Your low inside hand around the turn allowed the mare to drop her inside shoulder, making her heavy on the right front. With a shorter take off distance such as this, even if she were ideally balanced, it’s best to sit tall to the base, release out of hand if possible and don’t close your hip angle any more than necessary (any more than the horse automatically closes it for you). When you jump up the neck before the front legs are folded and out of the way, you make it much harder, and sometimes impossible, for the legs (especially the leading leg, since it’s the second to fold) to fold clear of the top rail as your body weight adds to the load on the horse’s forehand. Another problem with jumping up the neck is that the horse pushes off the ground with enough force to clear the jump with you in the middle of the tack, or comparably so, compared to laying on the neck. Adding excess weight to the front end at a jump after “calculations” have already been made can mean that there just isn’t enough “oomph” to tuck up the forelimbs under an additional X number of pounds.
The left front was going to clear just fine, so my guess is that she knew exactly where that top rail was, but being heavy on her right side, with her right shoulder dropped and then an “eager” release on your part added up to make her unable to get the right front clear.
'So glad you were both okay![/QUOTE]
No offense taken! That makes quite a bit of sense and is very possibly the reason for the tumble. I definitely am not always perfect and this was a difficult exercise with lots of room for error, a few of which I probably made. 
Again, it’s not a rotational fall as she never flipped end over end and I understand that. What I was originally trying to convey is that the way in which she made contact the fence could likely have resulted in a rotational fall had we been jumping an immovable object and that wasn’t because of a horse that has a naturally dangerous jumping form, nor was it a completely frightening distance, which is what the OP originally had inquired about.
I observed a rotational fall in an AA Hunter round from a really bad distance over an oxer. The rider really missed the distance and horse got hung up in the oxer and flipped. It was very scary to watch. Luckily; neither the rider or horse had any serious injuries.
[QUOTE=Win1;6941103]
So it looks like the common theme here is rider skill. That certainly makes sense considering less skilled riders make the horse’s job harder and are less likely to pick up on things that need to be tweaked or know how to fix it, as they are approaching a fence.[/QUOTE]
Not really. Rotational falls can happen for any number of reasons. I’ve seen a horse trip and fall.
I had a horse flip with me just cantering…on the flat. He was four, over reached and down we went (head over heels…we were both covered in footing and he landed on my leg but luckily we were fine). I’ve known others who have had similar experiences…green horses still sorting out their balance and a butterfly distracts them and legs get tangled! I’ve had another close call jumping a small fence. Distance was fine…horse was green and got distracted and the rail tangled in his legs.
I remember watching a former Olympic medal winning GP horse with an accomplished GP rider flip at a triple bar. Horse got too bold and left long…tipped over when the rail didn’t fall right. Both were fine but it was scary.
Sometimes it is caused by bad riding. Sometimes bad form others times a bad distance. Sometimes it is just weird bad luck. Evening something off in the footing can cause an issue.
The safety cups have helped a lot but they will not prevent all accidents.
My rotational fall (in an equitation class) was caused by a combination of bad distance, poor communication between me and Horse, and possibly exacerbated by Horse’s natural way of going that tended to be heavy on the forehand…
Horse had been ridden by a variety of folks and had gotten into the habit of just chipping in rather than trying to lengthen if necessary to the jump, so I had been trying to work on that. We were cantering down to a single oxer, a plywood box painted to look like a stone wall with a couple of rails on top, and had a miscommunication regarding whether to move up for a long distance or hold for a short one. I was advocating for the short distance for a change, when Horse launched himself from a stride out and landed right on top of the sucker, got tangled up in the top rails and (I was told) did a full end-over-end and face plant. :eek:
Fortunately we did not land in the same spot and neither of us were seriously injured, though it was not for the lack of trying. I was briefly knocked out (this being in the distant past of non-ASTM velvet covered hunt caps) and opened my eyes to find myself flat on my back in the dirt with my current trainer AND my first two riding instructors (one of whom was judging the class that day) all staring down at me… :no:
Poor Horse had a scrape on his nose and I swear he was so furious he wouldn’t even look at me!
[QUOTE=arktos19;6941366]
My rotational fall (in an equitation class) was caused by a combination of bad distance, poor communication between me and Horse, and possibly exacerbated by Horse’s natural way of going that tended to be heavy on the forehand…
Horse had been ridden by a variety of folks and had gotten into the habit of just chipping in rather than trying to lengthen if necessary to the jump, so I had been trying to work on that. We were cantering down to a single oxer, a plywood box painted to look like a stone wall with a couple of rails on top, and had a miscommunication regarding whether to move up for a long distance or hold for a short one. I was advocating for the short distance for a change, when Horse launched himself from a stride out and landed right on top of the sucker, got tangled up in the top rails and (I was told) did a full end-over-end and face plant. :eek:
Fortunately we did not land in the same spot and neither of us were seriously injured, though it was not for the lack of trying. I was briefly knocked out (this being in the distant past of non-ASTM velvet covered hunt caps) and opened my eyes to find myself flat on my back in the dirt with my current trainer AND my first two riding instructors (one of whom was judging the class that day) all staring down at me… :no:
Poor Horse had a scrape on his nose and I swear he was so furious he wouldn’t even look at me![/QUOTE]
See it sounds like most rotational falls are due to long distances…
I have witnessed three (well actually witnessed two – participated in one!) rotational falls first hand. There are so many variables I do not know that they could be generalized with one main cause. The three were:
Horse got TOO fast and flat out on prelim XC – rider really wasn’t in control and should have pulled up. Approached a table at a high rate of speed (and flat) – long spot, horse really did not get the height it needed, and chested / slid over the table.
Horse had refused logs over drop into water on Advanced XC course twice – each time coming in, losing momentum, and sat / slid into the fence refused. Third try rider got more impulsion to the fence, horse still said “no” slid into the fence, then basically toppled over it, leaving knees on the otherside, flipping down drop into the water (photos of that one here http://portfolio.jcdill.com/2008/May-2008-1/7078925_ZF9Qkg/453700029_hhKxHNv#!i=453700029&k=hhKxHNv). Horse was competing at Advanced,
Horse tripped during take off over a pretty standard log fence, low speed, medium canter – small log around 3 ft, caught knees and went a$$ over tea kettle – landed upside down on the other side. I took quite the header, hitting chin / head first, as my hands were still on the reins. Can’t say the horse usually had the best of form, not good with knees (and was retired from jumping after this).
[QUOTE=Caligirl123;6942491]
See it sounds like most rotational falls are due to long distances…[/QUOTE]
That is one story. Actually MOST really dangerous rotational falls xc (with fences that don’t fall down are when they get there on a half stride or the horse adds when there isn’t room. Yes…I saw a rider killed in a rotational fall before as well…and it was caused by several reasons. There is NOT one reason.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;6942573]
That is one story. Actually MOST really dangerous rotational falls xc (with fences that don’t fall down are when they get there on a half stride or the horse adds when there isn’t room. Yes…I saw a rider killed in a rotational fall before as well…and it was caused by several reasons. There is NOT one reason.[/QUOTE]
Oh no, that is awful…what happened?
[QUOTE=Caligirl123;6942617]
Oh no, that is awful…what happened?[/QUOTE]
Experienced rider xc–early on course. At top speed and they missjudged. Horse rotated over the fence and rider landed on her head. It was not nice to see.
Another rider was killed that same year when the horse tried to stop at a fence and slide into it, flipping around the fence and landed on top of him crushing him.
I’ve also known riders to be seriously injured not even jumping. My worst injury (resulting in a week stay in the hospital) came while just cantering a circle on the flat in the ring. Crap happens. But there are a lot of studies done on rotational falls…and they can happen at any number of speeds, heights and situations. It isn’t always from bad riding.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;6942665]
Experienced rider xc–early on course. At top speed and they missjudged. Horse rotated over the fence and rider landed on her head. It was not nice to see.
Another rider was killed that same year when the horse tried to stop at a fence and slide into it, flipping around the fence and landed on top of him crushing him.
I’ve also known riders to be seriously injured not even jumping. My worst injury (resulting in a week stay in the hospital) came while just cantering a circle on the flat in the ring. Crap happens. But there are a lot of studies done on rotational falls…and they can happen at any number of speeds, heights and situations. It isn’t always from bad riding.[/QUOTE]
Thats true…I’m glad they’re using frangible pins now, but then many people are quite upset about that because they think it will become to much like show jumping. The rotations is show jumping are rare and hardly ever fatal…because the jumps are not solid…can’t people see that having frangible pins will save lives?
[QUOTE=Caligirl123;6942708]
Thats true…I’m glad they’re using frangible pins now, but then many people are quite upset about that because they think it will become to much like show jumping. The rotations is show jumping are rare and hardly ever fatal…because the jumps are not solid…can’t people see that having frangible pins will save lives?[/QUOTE]
Fragible pins have been used for years and are used at all recognized events. They do not work on all types of jumps and will not stop all falls. Just one specific type in a specific situation—and you will still typically fall if you hit one, just not rotate. Better course design and continued work on other safety devices will help…but a 1200lb animal at speed is going to occasionally result in injury. Most that are “upset” about fragible pins believe it is a band-aid that doesn’t do much and prefer riders to have a bit more fear and respect for the jumps. As still the best safety device is being prepared (through proper and good training) and well mounted on suitable horses for the level.
Some of the worst falls I’ve seen were in the show ring. no. not fatal (but a broken neck and two broken backs) but then they often do not have the speed we do in racing or eventing. Watched an Olympic horse flip at a triple bar once…and a safety cup would not have made a difference. Rider was thrown clear and both were fine. But can be very serious. The safety cups have made a big difference but if a rail get tangled in your horse’s legs…the fall can be pretty damn ugly.
[QUOTE=Caligirl123;6942708]
Thats true…I’m glad they’re using frangible pins now, but then many people are quite upset about that because they think it will become to much like show jumping. The rotations is show jumping are rare and hardly ever fatal…because the jumps are not solid…can’t people see that having frangible pins will save lives?[/QUOTE]
I still am confused about what you are trying to figure out. Rotational falls, whether stadium or XC, are multifactoral and can not be singularly attributed to the things initially presented. For example, If you made the rails VERY slick, e.g. coat with slick grease, you could prevent most rotational falls. That has nothing to do with form or rider. It is simple physics. You stop the transfer of momentum.
Not all fences on XC can use a frangible pin. Also, micro damage accumulation in the pin can cause a rail to fall even if the horse does not hit it, thus adding a new form of danger/risk/penalty.
[QUOTE=RAyers;6942746]
Also, micro damage accumulation in the pin can cause a rail to fall even if the horse does not hit it, thus adding a new form of danger/risk/penalty.[/QUOTE]
There’s a penalty for a rail down on XC? 
[QUOTE=MHM;6942776]
There’s a penalty for a rail down on XC? [/QUOTE]
It used to be 21 penalties. It looks like the FEI overturned the automatic rule, but the ground jury can still impose penalties for a broken pin, if so deemed.
A new type of pin that shows accumulated damage has been approved and is now mandatory.
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