Causes for rotational falls over fences?

[Caligirl123]

[QUOTE=RAyers;6942746]
I still am confused about what you are trying to figure out. Rotational falls, whether stadium or XC, are multifactoral and can not be singularly attributed to the things initially presented. For example, If you made the rails VERY slick, e.g. coat with slick grease, you could prevent most rotational falls. That has nothing to do with form or rider. It is simple physics. You stop the transfer of momentum.

Not all fences on XC can use a frangible pin. Also, micro damage accumulation in the pin can cause a rail to fall even if the horse does not hit it, thus adding a new form of danger/risk/penalty.[/QUOTE]

I was saying that alot of people don’t want XC courses changed because they believe it will become too much like show jumping…even if it means making the sport safer

[RAyers]

[QUOTE=Caligirl123;6942836]
I was saying that alot of people don’t want XC courses changed because they believe it will become too much like show jumping…even if it means making the sport safer[/QUOTE]

I was talking about your original post and several of your follow-ups. Rotational falls can not be ascribed to single factors as it seems you are trying to determine.

And, no, you are mistaken. We bitch about XC becoming jumpers because of the course design; tight turns, related distances, multiple combinations, and fences made to look like furniture. I don’t know of any who did not support frangible pin designs. I even designed a collapsable table with a colleague here on COTH.

[PNWjumper]

[QUOTE=Caligirl123;6941065]
I don’t think so. Why are cups at lower levels deeper then? Wouldn’t be safer for all back rails of oxers to have safety cups?[/QUOTE]

I don’t understand these comments. At the shows I go to, the same cups are used in the lower levels and upper levels. No difference in depth between <1.0m and 1.60m. The only exception are the flat cups they sometimes use on a couple of fences in the upper level classes. But those are the exception, and not used in every class.

And I agree with RAyers. I don’t think you can pick any one factor that causes a rotational fall. I think it’s a perfect storm of decisions/situations that results in a flip. Perhaps more often when a bad distance is part of the equation, but of the 3 rotational falls I’ve been part of, distance has not been a factor (meaning the distance was good in each case).

It’s like trying to figure out why humans trip on their own feet and fall sometimes.

[Caligirl123]

[QUOTE=PNWjumper;6943337]
I don’t understand these comments. At the shows I go to, the same cups are used in the lower levels and upper levels. No difference in depth between <1.0m and 1.60m. The only exception are the flat cups they sometimes use on a couple of fences in the upper level classes. But those are the exception, and not used in every class.

And I agree with RAyers. I don’t think you can pick any one factor that causes a rotational fall. I think it’s a perfect storm of decisions/situations that results in a flip. Perhaps more often when a bad distance is part of the equation, but of the 3 rotational falls I’ve been part of, distance has not been a factor (meaning the distance was good in each case).

It’s like trying to figure out why humans trip on their own feet and fall sometimes.[/QUOTE]

Right yea I get that. It just seems like bad long distances are almost always a contributing factor. What happened in your falls? Were they in showjumping or cross country?

[PNWjumper]

[QUOTE=Caligirl123;6943395]
Right yea I get that. It just seems like bad long distances are almost always a contributing factor. What happened in your falls? Were they in showjumping or cross country?[/QUOTE]

My most recent one (3 or 4 years ago) was in a 1.20m jumper class over an oxer that was the first fence in a two-stride. The footing was horrible (really wet and sloppy and slippery) and I think my mare slipped or second guessed herself on take off, leading to a delay in getting her front feet off of the ground. The distance was not long and it was not short (or even a little tight). It was just a perfect storm of weird things that lead to a full flip with her rolling over the left side of her poll and landing on the right side of her back/butt. I was unconscious for a very brief moment and so they rushed me to the ER, and she was pretty scraped up, but surprisingly sound and comfortable to the point that I showed her in the 1.15m for the rest of the week. After we got home and she got some time off she ended up with a seroma in her chest that took a few months to go away, and a year or 2 later she developed a large lump on her poll that the vets think is bursitis as a [long term] result of the flip.

My other two were on horses at home schooling over little-ish (3’6" range) fence. One was on my 5yo DWB gelding maybe 12 or 13 years ago and he just wasn’t paying attention (as babies often do) and the jump was a narrow oxer (I think) set as an end fence. The footing was soft and deep, but not dangerously so, and it was a very soft landing for me. Neither of us were injured. The other was my old AO/GP horse when he was young-ish (so 20ish years ago) and it was the same story. Good distance, normal footing, but he was screwing around to the jump (bucking) and ended up flipping over the top of it and neither of us were injured. That was a life changing moment for him, though, and boy did he pay attention after that, lol!

I’m sure that long distances (or chips) can be a factor in that they increase the amount of error that has gone into the effort, but I just don’t think there’s any one determining factor that causes a horse to flip in any given situation.

[Justa_Bob]

[QUOTE=Caligirl123;6943395]
Right yea I get that. It just seems like bad long distances are almost always a contributing factor. [/QUOTE]

This has gone on for 5 pages and your statement above echoes what you stated in the first post. It seems very important to have an answer to your question and you have been given that answer by a well-known scientist who studies these things and is an avid eventer (RAyers see Post 62).

You can’t take your experience (anecdotal evidence) or theories and make them into statistics or conclusions. Correlation (two things happening together or in sequence) is not causation (conclusion).

I would take RAyers answer of the multitude of factors and leave it at that.

[FLeventer]

Couple of months ago I was watching a training round (3’3) at a schooling event and witnessed a horse nick a top rail and get his feet tangled and land on his side. Rider was shaken and lucky her leg wasnt in the way. Her distance was short and he made a standstill effort. Not a full rotation, which I think was from the lack of speed, but enough that he landed on his shoulder/side.

I’ve seen one rotation up close at an event. Quite scary, but both rider and horse limped away.

[SaratogaTB]

I am doing some research here and hope no one minds me asking a total beginner question. I’m getting myself psyched up for my first event ever, a starter event, elementary level. My OTTB is as honest as they get, and we comfortable show in the hunter ring at 2’6, and I admit that is where I am most comfortable. His dressage is terrific.

My issue is this: I am not accustomed to fixed jumps. I’m going to do it, but I am trying to tell myself that a rotational fall is impossible over a solid log. The physics explanation in this thread helps me, because he’s not going to clip a log above the knee. (he would have to bend down to get there) But, sometimes we do clip a rail and I am still unsure on what happens when we clip one that doesn’t fall down. My event coach, who is amazing, is working on my confidence and has told me that I can trot my first XC if I want. Although, my boy is very good when we get out and gallop in the fields and up and down hills and if I could just get past the “solid” thing I know I could do a great job.

Any tips on how to not panic about the first time over solid fences that won’t be more than 18 inches? :winkgrin: It helps me to absorb “worse case” to get more confidence.

Thanks!

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=SaratogaTB;7127332]
I am doing some research here and hope no one minds me asking a total beginner question. I’m getting myself psyched up for my first event ever, a starter event, elementary level. My OTTB is as honest as they get, and we comfortable show in the hunter ring at 2’6, and I admit that is where I am most comfortable. His dressage is terrific.

My issue is this: I am not accustomed to fixed jumps. I’m going to do it, but I am trying to tell myself that a rotational fall is impossible over a solid log. The physics explanation in this thread helps me, because he’s not going to clip a log above the knee. (he would have to bend down to get there) But, sometimes we do clip a rail and I am still unsure on what happens when we clip one that doesn’t fall down. My event coach, who is amazing, is working on my confidence and has told me that I can trot my first XC if I want. Although, my boy is very good when we get out and gallop in the fields and up and down hills and if I could just get past the “solid” thing I know I could do a great job.

Any tips on how to not panic about the first time over solid fences that won’t be more than 18 inches? :winkgrin: It helps me to absorb “worse case” to get more confidence.

Thanks![/QUOTE]

At that height…your chances of a rotational fall are the same with the jumps as without. In other words…if you horse trips and falls down which he could do without the jumps as much as with them.

Take a deep breath (or two), grab some mane…and trot the fences. You will have a blast.

[Jealoushe]

[QUOTE=SaratogaTB;7127332]
I am doing some research here and hope no one minds me asking a total beginner question. I’m getting myself psyched up for my first event ever, a starter event, elementary level. My OTTB is as honest as they get, and we comfortable show in the hunter ring at 2’6, and I admit that is where I am most comfortable. His dressage is terrific.

My issue is this: I am not accustomed to fixed jumps. I’m going to do it, but I am trying to tell myself that a rotational fall is impossible over a solid log. The physics explanation in this thread helps me, because he’s not going to clip a log above the knee. (he would have to bend down to get there) But, sometimes we do clip a rail and I am still unsure on what happens when we clip one that doesn’t fall down. My event coach, who is amazing, is working on my confidence and has told me that I can trot my first XC if I want. Although, my boy is very good when we get out and gallop in the fields and up and down hills and if I could just get past the “solid” thing I know I could do a great job.

Any tips on how to not panic about the first time over solid fences that won’t be more than 18 inches? :winkgrin: It helps me to absorb “worse case” to get more confidence.

Thanks![/QUOTE]

You should try and go cross country schooling before your first event, you will feel much more confident afterwards. Rotational falls are rare but do occur, just ride with impulsion and not speed.

[JenEM]

Ditto the comments to get out and go schooling, though at 18", you’re mostly going to have logs, and maybe a baby coop. If they hit something and it doesn’t fall down? Generally they jump better over the next fence. Sort of the same theory at work behind poling, or getting a hard rub before going in for a jumper round.

[Soaponarope]

Long spot to an oxer will do it.