Chair Seat acceptable for jumping???? Bernie Traurig chair seat?

[SuzieQNutter]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7918779]
Feel free to disagree, but closing your hip angle should not push your heels forward or your butt so far back that you are significantly out of alignment.

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Rugbug ,You are correct in that I would not call any of those riders folding.

To me they are too far up the horse’s neck.

I have been taught that you should balanced and if the horse magically disappears underneath you, you should land on the ground and not fall forward or back. Both for dressage and jumping.

You are obviously taught differently on the other side of the world as google is full of riders who are up their horses neck.

I did find this one.

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.608004912371008436&pid=15.1

Merrygoround. Folding does not happen overnight, it is a skill that has to be learned.

[gypsymare]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7918938]
Again, not completely true. Your shoulders can go forward without your hips going back.* It’s called a squat. And squatting is pretty much what you want to do when you jump.

*Stand up against a wall in a fairly straight posture. Now squat. Your bottom will not be able to go backwards, nor will your feet be able to move, however, you can go up and down as well as lean your shoulders forward and still go down. If you BEND over, you will not be able to do it because you will put your COG out over your feet without being able to compensate by pushing your bottom back…and you will fall. Jumping isn’t bending over (or at least it shouldn’t be).[/QUOTE]

In a squat your hips move backward.

Stand with you back vertical and straight and knees slightly bend as in a normal riding position at the walk. Now fold forward at your hips 45 degrees. If you don’t move your hips back you are going to fall on your face. Now on a horse you have hands you can press into your horses neck, or you can pinch with your knees, but the ideal is to balance independently of your hands.

[gypsymare]

[QUOTE=greengirl;7918964]
RugBug and GypsyMare, thank you for your posts. Yes, I think I am getting the “stick the butt out” thing okay…at least that’s how I think of it. I stick my butt back as if I am squatting at the gym and try to go for that stretch in the hamstrings. I’m slowly getting rid of my tendency to want to jump the jump for my horse.

Any tips for working on keeping my lower leg back (non-chair) when I am posting? I sense that this will just take lots of time, but if anyone has any tips or exercises that work for them, please share! I do know that I need to strengthen my hamstrings off the horse![/QUOTE]

Sometimes this is a saddle issue. If the stirrup bars are too far forward it can contribute to chair seat. Older Stubbens have a reputation for putting riders in a terrible chair seat but the wrong sized saddle it just one not balanced right for you can make a big difference.

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7918938]
*Stand up against a wall in a fairly straight posture. Now squat. Your bottom will not be able to go backwards, nor will your feet be able to move, however, you can go up and down as well as lean your shoulders forward and still go down. [/QUOTE]

And if the wall isn’t there, you fall on your ass. It’s not a balanced position.

[QUOTE=SuzieQNutter;7919119]I have been taught that you should balanced and if the horse magically disappears underneath you, you should land on the ground and not fall forward or back. Both for dressage and jumping.

You are obviously taught differently on the other side of the world as google is full of riders who are up their horses neck.[/QUOTE]

SuzieQNutter, it isn’t just geography, it’s generational. I learned to ride back in the 60s-70s in the US and was taught exactly as you say: if the horse disappeared out from under you, you should find yourself standing balanced on the ground.

[SuzieQNutter]

Thank you for clearing that up for me Nosuchperson. I was taught in the 80’s and 90’s.

LOL don’t ask me to squat. I cannot squat and put my heels on the ground. I have very short Achilles Tendons. I cannot ride and put my heels down. I cannot ride wearing spurs. Mum found out she had the same thing when she went snow skiing.

If we didn’t want to ride or ski we probably wouldn’t know!!!

[RugBug]

I grew up in the 80s so “generational” is a cop-out.

Of the pictures I posted, only one (#2) would have balance issues if the horse was removed. I’ll be sure to let Mclain and Beezie know they are in danger of coming off and are balancing on their horse’s neck. :rolleyes:

The picture that SusieQ posted shows a rider with her stirrups too short. If they were the proper length, (about a whole longer) the alignment would be there. It’s not far off as is.

If y’all can’t squat without balancing on the wall, you’re doing something wrong. I can do it just fine.

Psst: I’m pretty sure this person learned Down Under

She’s Australian and her butt is behind her heels…but she’s also behind the motion and if you removed the horse, she’d be close to falling on her keester

Speak of the devil. It’s Bernie Traurig himself.

[SuzieQNutter]

I thought you said it was okay to disagree?

We all strive for correctness, that doesn’t mean we will get it over every single jump. Just the same as we always strive for a perfect circle in dressage.

Those last 2 photos did show folding as I have been taught.

The one of Beezie also technically her butt is behind her heels as well as another one you posted. I am sorry that I do not know their names.

They are all successful but riding differently. Everyone does compared to body difference and what they have been taught.

They are all beautiful riders, and absolutely gorgeous horses, and are just riding the way they have been taught. The same as you and I.

As long as the horse is happy, that is really all that matters.

I was riding in Jumping Equitation, so for me it did matter how I sat over the jump as well. Now that you mention it, I probably did ride with a shorter stirrup than some of those riders shown.

I suggest the OP picks one instructor to stop from getting confused.

[Hunterkid]

Yes, your hips need to come back if you fold. Physics tells us that to stay balanced, every time you put a pound forward, you need to put a pound back. So, if your shoulders go forward, you have two choices, move your hips back or your leg back. If your leg goes back, that’s called jumping ahead.

[Chaila]

It might be a saddle issue. I had a terrible time getting my lower leg where I needed it for jumping in my old saddle. I was always fighting with it. That might be why you always feel so out of balance with the shorter stirrups. I got a new saddle, now it’s easy to balance with my leg (almost) safely out in front of me.

I had this issue many years ago when I was in England. They said “Get your leg HERE now” and never really explained it well. I didn’t get it at all.

[gypsymare]

@RugBug;7919248

She’s Australian and her butt is behind her heels…but she’s also behind the motion and if you removed the horse, she’d be close to falling on her keester

My word, how much do you think her butt weighs? Balance equations involve moment arms, the farther from the point of balance, the greater the force. Her entire upper body and arms are expended out far beyond the point of balance, the stirrup iron, and her butt is just a little behind it. That balance looks absolutely perfect. We’re so used to rewarding short, pressing, crest releases and laying on your horses neck we forgot what correct looks like.

[gypsymare]

I’ll also add that it depends on the point of the jump the photo was taken. The direction of force required to stay balanced changes through the arc of the jump and you’ll see more of a hips back shot from the very top of the arc through landing than at the beginning when the horse is thrusting forward and up.

[Hunterkid]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7919248]
I grew up in the 80s so “generational” is a cop-out.

Of the pictures I posted, only one (#2) would have balance issues if the horse was removed. I’ll be sure to let Mclain and Beezie know they are in danger of coming off and are balancing on their horse’s neck. :rolleyes:

The picture that SusieQ posted shows a rider with her stirrups too short. If they were the proper length, (about a whole longer) the alignment would be there. It’s not far off as is.

If y’all can’t squat without balancing on the wall, you’re doing something wrong. I can do it just fine.

Psst: I’m pretty sure this person learned Down Under

She’s Australian and her butt is behind her heels…but she’s also behind the motion and if you removed the horse, she’d be close to falling on her keester

Speak of the devil. It’s Bernie Traurig himself.[/QUOTE]

All three look great!

[ToTheNines]

Another factor may be that the longer your thighs are, the more you feel like you push your butt back.

[findeight]

[QUOTE=Rusty15;7918570]
I can’t think of a situation where you’d want a chair seat ever. I have never heard of anyone teaching a chair seat. I wouldn’t necessarily call Bernie’s position a chair seat, but his lower leg is slightly forward. I think he’s really trying to make a point about riders that have their legs too far back and get tipped forward, which is also no bueno.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I can, it’s referred to as a safety seat when things go south-like a spook dropping a shoulder and spinning out from under you or a green horse bucking. It will keep you on. Fox Hunters and Eventers will also use it on rough terrain and going downhill, sometimes on drop fences.

But as a routine position? Western. Otherwise any trainer teaching it as a primary position has been looking at too many old prints from back when it was en vogue, like 100+ years ago. I would seek another trainer more in tune with current theory. Remember, anybody can call themselves a trainer and charge for their time- does not in any way mean they know what they are doing.

[BestLegUp]

To the OP - the difference in styles are also known as riding behind the motion (the chair position) and riding with the motion. Both can be correct, but, the classic American style of equitation is to ride with the motion. (Germans and Dutch ride behind the motion especially over big jumps). You should ride with the motion and not behind it as your usual position because, e.g., it is more balanced and natural (that is why you feel better and more effective in that position). Riding behind the motion does have its place in your tool kit of positions and techniques, such as when a horse feels spooky, or needing more impulsion to a large fence, etc. So it is a useful skill and the ability to feel the difference is important (in reality it is a continuum). But when riding the flat or jumping cross rails - 2’6", being only (or usually) behind the motion is poor riding by classic US equitation standards and encourages bad habits; e.g., hitting the horse’s back when posting, throwing your upper body to catch up with the horse, etc. And it simply does not look as nice, even to the casual observer. So, ride balanced - ride elegant

Your event trainer sounds like a winner.

FYI - while riding behind the motion and with the motion are both acceptable seats, riding in front of the motion is not. If you find yourself falling forward (or your crotch over the pommel), you are probably in front of the motion. Contrary to what some have said (and in support of what several have said), a rider does need to move her seat slightly backwards to counter-balance her shoulders going slightly forward. This way, the rider’s center of gravity remains over the proper leg (toe at girth with body weight sinking into the heel, not pressing on the toe). You can feel/experiment with this counter-balance phenomena in two point at the canter by varying your shoulder position from very straight up to nearly horizontal. If you loose your balance, or your leg moves, you aren’t doing it right.

[boosma47]

Ultimately, isn’t it all a matter of rider’s center of gravity remaining ove the horse’s center of gravity, that the horse can perform as easily as possible?

Thus, one’s core is key. If that is in line with horse COG, both have stability.

Straight line example points out the lengthening and alignment of rider, but it is not static as such. It is rider’s most effective and neutral position, but must be able to move.

[foursocks]

So, if you watch German and Dutch riders, they don’t actually ride behind the motion. That’s bizarre- riding behind the motion over large fences can make a horse jump flat and weights the hind end- and that causes rails. German and Dutch riders are dressage-trained and they don’t ride in two point the entire course- but the best of them absolutely go with the motion.

I ride both my TB and my WB in a more sitting position, but with my TB I am slightly lighter in my seat because he prefers that. On neither of them do I ever sit in the air, nor do I jump behind the motion- at least, not on purpose! I can do two point the whole time if I want, but they are dressage trained and go best if I ride them like that.

Ludger Beerbaum is the quintessential German rider. He is masterful at balancing himself (he is a big, tall man) so he does not interfere with his horses. You can pick any video and see this- he is never behind the motion tin the air. Here is just one example of him on the great Chaman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUSZTfslRcM

Or, the young stallion Colestus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhbdQY45-AU

[foursocks]

Hah- boosma47 said it better than me- the center of gravity is key!

Another interesting video- a side by side of John Whitaker, who rides in a more forward seat, and Beerbaum. Both balance themselves very well in the air. Beerbaum is a more elegant rider but if you watch the riders, and then go back and watch the horses, both styles work to get the best jump out of the horses. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDkyWadQPPU

[BestLegUp]

Foursocks - I don’t think you know what these phrases mean or when they are used in riding. Riding behind the motion does not jumping pre-caprelli (like all hunt prints show). Ludger is a master, but he catches up with his horse in the air. Compare to Rodrigo Pessoa to understand the difference in question.

[SuzieQNutter]

Another thing I was taught at the time was:-

Except for halting to acknowledge the judge, we were in 2 point from entering the arena to leaving the arena.