Chair Seat acceptable for jumping???? Bernie Traurig chair seat?

[Bogie]

[QUOTE=gypsymare;7919145]
Sometimes this is a saddle issue. If the stirrup bars are too far forward it can contribute to chair seat. Older Stubbens have a reputation for putting riders in a terrible chair seat but the wrong sized saddle it just one not balanced right for you can make a big difference.[/QUOTE]

Very true. If your saddle is balanced for YOU (and that also means fitting the horse correctly), your leg naturally falls in the correct position.

There are times when you want your leg to be sightly forward when jumping – for example, jumping xc on a slight downhill or over a drop – but that should take a conscious effort on your part to move your leg forward. If your leg is already forward, your saddle isn’t balanced correctly.

[supaflyskye]

[QUOTE=SuzieQNutter;7919119]
Rugbug ,You are correct in that I would not call any of those riders folding.

To me they are too far up the horse’s neck.

I have been taught that you should balanced and if the horse magically disappears underneath you, you should land on the ground and not fall forward or back. Both for dressage and jumping.

You are obviously taught differently on the other side of the world as google is full of riders who are up their horses neck.

I did find this one.

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.608004912371008436&pid=15.1

Merrygoround. Folding does not happen overnight, it is a skill that has to be learned.[/QUOTE]
would you consider me as jumping too far up my horse’s neck?
http://36.media.tumblr.com/3f56dfd33bf46ecfcf59929eb2a181d1/tumblr_ml2n3yQIpN1rcznoko1_1280.png
I wouldn’t, and my hip & heel are still in alignment. Granted, my leg has slipped back the tiniest bit, but overall I think this is a correct jumping position.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=Hunterkid;7919322]
Yes, your hips need to come back if you fold. Physics tells us that to stay balanced, every time you put a pound forward, you need to put a pound back. So, if your shoulders go forward, you have two choices, move your hips back or your leg back. If your leg goes back, that’s called jumping ahead.[/QUOTE]

Your butt does not have to be behind your heel. The aligment of hips/heel can (and should) remain in the air.

[QUOTE=foursocks;7919773]

Ludger Beerbaum is the quintessential German rider. He is masterful at balancing himself (he is a big, tall man) so he does not interfere with his horses. You can pick any video and see this- he is never behind the motion tin the air. Here is just one example of him on the great Chaman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUSZTfslRcM

Or, the young stallion Colestus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhbdQY45-AU[/QUOTE]

He rides behind the motion between (most) fences and then catches up in the air.

[greengirl]

stirrup bars too far forward

[QUOTE=gypsymare;7919145]
Sometimes this is a saddle issue. If the stirrup bars are too far forward it can contribute to chair seat. Older Stubbens have a reputation for putting riders in a terrible chair seat but the wrong sized saddle it just one not balanced right for you can make a big difference.[/QUOTE]

Hi, gypsmare! Yes, I think this is also part of my problem. When I sit in my saddle and move my heel back to where it looks aligned perfectly, my stirrup leathers move back past the vertical. I have a long thigh and short calf.

[greengirl]

[QUOTE=BestLegUp;7919614]
To the OP - the difference in styles are also known as riding behind the motion (the chair position) and riding with the motion. Both can be correct, but, the classic American style of equitation is to ride with the motion. (Germans and Dutch ride behind the motion especially over big jumps). You should ride with the motion and not behind it as your usual position because, e.g., it is more balanced and natural (that is why you feel better and more effective in that position). Riding behind the motion does have its place in your tool kit of positions and techniques, such as when a horse feels spooky, or needing more impulsion to a large fence, etc. So it is a useful skill and the ability to feel the difference is important (in reality it is a continuum). But when riding the flat or jumping cross rails - 2’6", being only (or usually) behind the motion is poor riding by classic US equitation standards and encourages bad habits; e.g., hitting the horse’s back when posting, throwing your upper body to catch up with the horse, etc. And it simply does not look as nice, even to the casual observer. So, ride balanced - ride elegant

Your event trainer sounds like a winner.

FYI - while riding behind the motion and with the motion are both acceptable seats, riding in front of the motion is not. If you find yourself falling forward (or your crotch over the pommel), you are probably in front of the motion. Contrary to what some have said (and in support of what several have said), a rider does need to move her seat slightly backwards to counter-balance her shoulders going slightly forward. This way, the rider’s center of gravity remains over the proper leg (toe at girth with body weight sinking into the heel, not pressing on the toe). You can feel/experiment with this counter-balance phenomena in two point at the canter by varying your shoulder position from very straight up to nearly horizontal. If you loose your balance, or your leg moves, you aren’t doing it right.[/QUOTE]

BestLegUp, thank you for your thoughts. Thank you, everyone, for your thoughts. BestLegUp, and the others that have discussed the counterbalancing, this is making more sense to me and is giving me insight into my leaning forward/perching problem. I believe my upper body tends to lean forward too much, which I am trying to rectify by not looking at the ground or my horses head. But, for sure, this biggest thing that aids in correcting this is to sit up off my butt, get my lower leg back more, and sit tall.

[greengirl]

[QUOTE=foursocks;7919773]
So, if you watch German and Dutch riders, they don’t actually ride behind the motion. That’s bizarre- riding behind the motion over large fences can make a horse jump flat and weights the hind end- and that causes rails. German and Dutch riders are dressage-trained and they don’t ride in two point the entire course- but the best of them absolutely go with the motion.

I ride both my TB and my WB in a more sitting position, but with my TB I am slightly lighter in my seat because he prefers that. On neither of them do I ever sit in the air, nor do I jump behind the motion- at least, not on purpose! I can do two point the whole time if I want, but they are dressage trained and go best if I ride them like that.

Ludger Beerbaum is the quintessential German rider. He is masterful at balancing himself (he is a big, tall man) so he does not interfere with his horses. You can pick any video and see this- he is never behind the motion tin the air. Here is just one example of him on the great Chaman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUSZTfslRcM

Or, the young stallion Colestus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhbdQY45-AU[/QUOTE]

I am still learning to see what behind-the-motion and with-the-motion look like, but from my new-rider point of view, the Germans look incredibly elegant. I would love to learn to ride like that. I hate to say it, but I dislike the look of the American style of riding. It just looks less composed. Now, none of this is a comment on what’s actually occurring between the horse and rider, but just on what looks nice to me. I don’t know what’s more or less effective or what feels better to the horse. As an American being taught by Americans who were taught by Americans (and so on), I’m being taught the latter.

[greengirl]

[QUOTE=Bogie;7919910]
Very true. If your saddle is balanced for YOU (and that also means fitting the horse correctly), your leg naturally falls in the correct position.

There are times when you want your leg to be sightly forward when jumping – for example, jumping xc on a slight downhill or over a drop – but that should take a conscious effort on your part to move your leg forward. If your leg is already forward, your saddle isn’t balanced correctly.[/QUOTE]

Thank you, Bogie. I think I need to take a closer look at my equipment.

[greengirl]

[QUOTE=Chaila;7919373]
It might be a saddle issue. I had a terrible time getting my lower leg where I needed it for jumping in my old saddle. I was always fighting with it. That might be why you always feel so out of balance with the shorter stirrups. I got a new saddle, now it’s easy to balance with my leg (almost) safely out in front of me.

I had this issue many years ago when I was in England. They said “Get your leg HERE now” and never really explained it well. I didn’t get it at all.[/QUOTE]

Thank you, Chaila. I am going to look into that. I do believe my stirrup bars are too forward, but I also think my saddle might be tilted back just slightly even with a riser pad.

[greengirl]

Chair seat in this video?

[QUOTE=foursocks;7919773]
So, if you watch German and Dutch riders, they don’t actually ride behind the motion. That’s bizarre- riding behind the motion over large fences can make a horse jump flat and weights the hind end- and that causes rails. German and Dutch riders are dressage-trained and they don’t ride in two point the entire course- but the best of them absolutely go with the motion.

I ride both my TB and my WB in a more sitting position, but with my TB I am slightly lighter in my seat because he prefers that. On neither of them do I ever sit in the air, nor do I jump behind the motion- at least, not on purpose! I can do two point the whole time if I want, but they are dressage trained and go best if I ride them like that.

Ludger Beerbaum is the quintessential German rider. He is masterful at balancing himself (he is a big, tall man) so he does not interfere with his horses. You can pick any video and see this- he is never behind the motion tin the air. Here is just one example of him on the great Chaman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUSZTfslRcM

Or, the young stallion Colestus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhbdQY45-AU[/QUOTE]

Based on some of the earlier responses, it seems like I may have misinterpreted the Bernie Traurig video and thought he was advocating a chair position when he was not (see my original post). But, to me, it still looks chair. SOOO, just to clarify, as I want to make sure I am looking at things properly and thinking about them the way all of you experienced riders are…

Take a look at Ludger Beerbaum (thank you foursocks, for posting this!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUSZTfslRcM

I randomly found a side view at :58. Is this riding in the chair position? This is EXACTLY what I have seen of myself in some pics.

[SuzieQNutter]

[QUOTE=supaflyskye;7920314]
would you consider me as jumping too far up my horse’s neck?
http://36.media.tumblr.com/3f56dfd33bf46ecfcf59929eb2a181d1/tumblr_ml2n3yQIpN1rcznoko1_1280.png
I wouldn’t, and my hip & heel are still in alignment. Granted, my leg has slipped back the tiniest bit, but overall I think this is a correct jumping position.[/QUOTE]

Supaflyskye that was the position I was looking for. If you take a ruler and put it vertical from the end of your butt, then your leg is in front.

You look lovely and balanced and your lovely horse looks happy.

You look like you could easily go through a hard grid with aeroplane arms and not holding your reins.

[JenEM]

[QUOTE=greengirl;7920749]
Thank you, Chaila. I am going to look into that. I do believe my stirrup bars are too forward, but I also think my saddle might be tilted back just slightly even with a riser pad.[/QUOTE]

Are you riding in the same saddle for both the dressage and jumping lessons? Or a different saddle for each? I know that the balance point in my dressage and jumping saddles is quite different, and they ask my leg to fall in different places so they can be used differently. Neither is incorrect for their purpose, but there is a difference in sit and feel in them, and especially in the way your leg is used between a proper dressage seat and a more American Forward System type ride. If you’re a beginner, switching back and forth may be confusing and leave one feeling “wrong” because the feels are different; I know that I regularly do both jumping and dressage lessons, and it still takes me a lap of the ring in “vertical position” to get my leg to settle into whichever saddle I haven’t ridden in in a while.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=SuzieQNutter;7920755]
Supaflyskye that was the position I was looking for. If you take a ruler and put it vertical from the end of your butt, then your leg is in front.

You look lovely and balanced and your lovely horse looks happy.

You look like you could easily go through a hard grid with aeroplane arms and not holding your reins.[/QUOTE]

I would consider supaflyskye to be in correct hip/heel alignment…no ruler necessary. Her hips are over her heels. If a ruler is necessary, you are being nitpicky to try to prove your point.

[SuzieQNutter]

I am not being nit picky, I have been taught differently to you.

I didn’t get a ruler, I was just trying to explain. To me - for them to be in alignment, as you say, I would have to angle the ruler.

Or as has been said in this post, if you put a wall behind her heel she has gone past it in that photo - and it was the rider who said her foot had slipped back, so you could move the ruler/wall to where the rider wishes her foot to be if you want.

So to me, in that photo, the rider does not ‘look up the horses neck’, like a lot of the riders on Google where you see a lot of the riders forward of the saddle and have the alignment you are stating, which is what I was referring to as ‘up the horse’s neck.’

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=SuzieQNutter;7921624]
I am not being nit picky, I have been taught differently to you.

<snip>

So to me, in that photo, the rider does not ‘look up the horses neck’, like a lot of the riders on Google where you see a lot of the riders forward of the saddle and have the alignment you are stating, which is what I was referring to as ‘up the horse’s neck.’[/QUOTE]

I doubt that you were taught that differently than me. I was taught that proper alignment is hips over heels…and that yes. that continues even over fences.

The pictures I posted do not show riders jumping ahead. They may shows riders who are ducking (a few of them do), but they are not jumping ahead. A few are a little high out of the saddle…but that’s not something I’m too concerned about.

Here is what jumping ahead looks like:

Refernce #1

Reference #2

Reference #4 Jumping ahead AND set hands! Eek

Reference

Here is what ducking, without jumping ahead looks like:

Reference #5

Edited to pull some images because they link to someone’s account rather than just images. Why is Photobucket doing that these days?

ducking and jumping ahead often go hand in hand, but they do not have too. They are separate faults. Jumping ahead usually involved pinching with the knee and pivoting around it so that the lower leg goes back and the upper body goes forward. The hips are in FRONT of the heels, not in line with them.

At any rate, OP, you do not want to jump from a chair seat unless you need to (spookiness, need to drive the horse, etc). If you are in a chair seat, you will try to catch up to the motion in the air which isn’t great.

[SuzieQNutter]

I said up the rider’s neck, just comparing it to what I was taught, not jumping ahead, not saying it was a bad thing.

Your reference 2 on the prior page showing a gorgeous, happy, chestnut jumping with a lovely rider is different to what I have been taught and technically in front of her heels so different to what you said as well.

Reference 6 and 7 would have gone back past your wall which is what a few people said should happen, not that you would stay in front of the walk when squatting.

The same as supaflyskye, who looks even lovelier to my eye.

[billiebob]

OP I remember reading in a Jimmy Wofford column that your stirrup leather should always hang perpendicular to the ground. There was also a very good article by Bernie Traurig in Practical Horseman maybe 2 years ago explaining the different jumping seats and when it’s appropriate to use them.

Supaflyskye you look pretty awesome!

[Release_First]

This was an interesting conversation for me because my definition of a chair seat appears to be different from all of you. When I am correcting a rider with a chair seat it is the thigh that I am working with. In a chair seat your thigh points toward the horses head rather than down to the ground as it should. My correction for a chair seat is to have the rider walk and trot with no stirrups and their knee behind the stirrup leather. This is an extreme position but it will open a closed hip angle which is the cause of the chair seat. I am not working with the lower leg at all at this point. A rider can have a chair seat and still have a good lower leg.

A rider who rides with the lower leg too far forward is going to tend to be behind the motion and not riding very effectively. A good correction for this is the two-one posting because it is hard to stay up that extra beat with your legs to the front. Also standing in the stirrup because again you must have your leg under you to do this.

Watching the video of Lugar with this conversation in mind was interesting. He is often behind the motion coming to a fence but when he is doing the bending line of three jumps (:31-:39) he is actually in a two point. Thus what makes him such an artist on a horse. He adjusts his seat to that what his horse needs at the moment. No set position or rules. As for his position at :58 I do not see a chair set at all but a rider riding forward, out of the saddle.

[greengirl]

yes, using the same saddle for both

[QUOTE=JenEM;7920770]
Are you riding in the same saddle for both the dressage and jumping lessons? Or a different saddle for each? I know that the balance point in my dressage and jumping saddles is quite different, and they ask my leg to fall in different places so they can be used differently. Neither is incorrect for their purpose, but there is a difference in sit and feel in them, and especially in the way your leg is used between a proper dressage seat and a more American Forward System type ride. If you’re a beginner, switching back and forth may be confusing and leave one feeling “wrong” because the feels are different; I know that I regularly do both jumping and dressage lessons, and it still takes me a lap of the ring in “vertical position” to get my leg to settle into whichever saddle I haven’t ridden in in a while.[/QUOTE]

JenM, that’s a great question! I hadn’t thought of that. Yes, I am using my close contact jumping saddle for everything. I asked my dressage coach if I should get a dressage saddle and he didn’t think I needed one, yet.

I hadn’t thought that perhaps my saddle was actually designed to put my heel out front. Is it the intention of the saddle maker to put the heel in front of the vertical alignment? If so, then is riding in a chair in between jumps also the intention? Would love to hear your thoughts on that.

[greengirl]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7921826]
I doubt that you were taught that differently than me. I was taught that proper alignment is hips over heels…and that yes. that continues even over fences.

The pictures I posted do not show riders jumping ahead. They may shows riders who are ducking (a few of them do), but they are not jumping ahead. A few are a little high out of the saddle…but that’s not something I’m too concerned about.

Here is what jumping ahead looks like:

Refernce #1

Reference #2

Reference #4 Jumping ahead AND set hands! Eek

Reference

Here is what ducking, without jumping ahead looks like:

Reference #5

Edited to pull some images because they link to someone’s account rather than just images. Why is Photobucket doing that these days?

ducking and jumping ahead often go hand in hand, but they do not have too. They are separate faults. Jumping ahead usually involved pinching with the knee and pivoting around it so that the lower leg goes back and the upper body goes forward. The hips are in FRONT of the heels, not in line with them.

At any rate, OP, you do not want to jump from a chair seat unless you need to (spookiness, need to drive the horse, etc). If you are in a chair seat, you will try to catch up to the motion in the air which isn’t great.[/QUOTE]

RugBug, those are GREAT PICS! THANK YOU so much for posting those. So, I see myself in every picture of the low jumps, but am learning to relax and not jump the jump for my horse. At the very low level where I am, the times when I’ve done it right (looking more like supaflyskye, but much lower), I’ve found that I really don’t need to do much physically. It’s more like sticking my butt back a bit, but not doing much else, since my horse isn’t having to put in much physical effort or do anything major to get over the jump.

I posed this next question to RugBug, but am wondering what you think, too. Are jumping saddles intended to put your heel in front and out of alignment? If that is the case, then how are we supposed to ride nice and balanced on the flat?

[greengirl]

[QUOTE=billiebob;7922113]
OP I remember reading in a Jimmy Wofford column that your stirrup leather should always hang perpendicular to the ground. There was also a very good article by Bernie Traurig in Practical Horseman maybe 2 years ago explaining the different jumping seats and when it’s appropriate to use them.

Supaflyskye you look pretty awesome![/QUOTE]

billiebob, it looks like it might be the March 2013 issue. I am going to try to find it online. If I do, I will post the link here. Thank you for that!