Chair Seat acceptable for jumping???? Bernie Traurig chair seat?

[greengirl]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7918779]
Feel free to disagree, but closing your hip angle should not push your heels forward or your butt so far back that you are significantly out of alignment.

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RugBug, I think I am getting what you are saying now. If I start out over the jump in a chair seat then I can’t get my hips in general alignment over my heel over the jump unless 1) I tilt, pivot at the knee, or somehow throw my body into it, or 2) the horse’s motion does it for me, correct?

When you start going over big jumps where your horse actually has to put some power into her jump, what does that extra effort do to the rider’s body? I am trying to imagine that. Does your body get thrown forward? And, if a rider is WAY back on horse’s back (really exaggerated), then your horse could literally leave you behind, right?

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=greengirl;7923025]

I posed this next question to RugBug, but am wondering what you think, too. Are jumping saddles intended to put your heel in front and out of alignment? If that is the case, then how are we supposed to ride nice and balanced on the flat?[/QUOTE]

Absolutely not. BUt they are all designed differently so finding the saddle that fits your conformation…as well as your horse’s can be a challenge. I’ve had saddles that I couldn’t ride in to to save my life. I’ve had ones that felt like “home” the second I was in them. It’s trying a lot of different saddles, learning what you like and what fits your body.

for instance, I love my old skool pancake PdN knockoff. No knee rolls, no thigh blocks, narrow twist. It’s just right for me. I also love me Delgrange Athena. My leg just goes where it should. They are at the opposite ends of the price spectrum. I have a Tad Coffin, that in theory I should love. I do not. It has the narrow twist, the minimal blocks/rolls, the flat seat but it pitches me forward. I also have another Delgrange that is almost identical to my Athena except it’s .5" bigger in the seat and not custom made for me. I can absolutely tell the difference in it. I still like it a lot, but I LOVE me Athena.

I think Release First’s point about the thigh is helpful. My thigh points down in my Athena and my PdN knockoff. IT gives that feeling of being “over” my leg that makes me feel balanced without trying. You can make yourself ride that way in any type of saddle, but it can be a fight.

[BK6756]

I don’t know if this has as much info as the Practical Horseman article, but it is the same topic.

http://www.getmyfix.org/4382/5-minute-clinic-29/

I’ve read this thread with interest because for me it seems like it always a choice between heels down (and in front of my hip) or heels under my hip (and level with my toe). I don’t know if it’s a flexibility issue or strength or what?

[gypsymare]

[QUOTE=greengirl;7922997]

I hadn’t thought that perhaps my saddle was actually designed to put my heel out front. Is it the intention of the saddle maker to put the heel in front of the vertical alignment? If so, then is riding in a chair in between jumps also the intention? Would love to hear your thoughts on that.[/QUOTE]
Steeplechase saddles and some older hunting saddles like Stubben Siegfrieds do. The intention is that you aren’t ever sitting in it for long, it’s expected that you’ll live in a two point at speed (closed hip angle). Other times it is unintentional and can be exacerbated by the saddle being too narrow for the horse and rotating upwards at the pommel, or being the wrong size for you.

I have a newer Stubben Seigfried VSSG that fits one of my horses well. She is a TB Paint and has a very sloping back and stands a bit downhill. It puts my leg too far out in front for great flat work but it does give me excellent support over fences and security in case of a stumble or refusal and I can easily two point and post. I put it on a friends horse for a hunt once who was much more uphill and it put me in a complete chair seat that was very difficult to get my leg back under me at all and posting uphill was nearly impossible.

Chair seat, and very uncomfortable:

Same saddle, different horses, feels loads better on these two:

Same bay/brown TB as above but different saddle, I have to worry about my leg slipping back in this one but some of that is due to lack of flexibility and pain in my ankle so towards hour 2-3 I have to shove my foot farther home in the stirrup, but it is much easier to balance in a moderate two point (Stubben Roxane VSS)

[gypsymare]

[QUOTE=BK6756;7923155]

I’ve read this thread with interest because for me it seems like it always a choice between heels down (and in front of my hip) or heels under my hip (and level with my toe). I don’t know if it’s a flexibility issue or strength or what?[/QUOTE]

Sounds like it could be a saddle issue, stirrups bars attached too far forward or saddle sitting too uphill on the horse. You can see in that first photo I posted in the post above that there’s no way I can get my heels under me. Not happening.

[gypsymare]

[QUOTE=supaflyskye;7920314]
would you consider me as jumping too far up my horse’s neck?
http://36.media.tumblr.com/3f56dfd33bf46ecfcf59929eb2a181d1/tumblr_ml2n3yQIpN1rcznoko1_1280.png
I wouldn’t, and my hip & heel are still in alignment. Granted, my leg has slipped back the tiniest bit, but overall I think this is a correct jumping position.[/QUOTE]

This is picture perfect applause and just eyeballing it I would say that your heels are more in line with your navel than your hips, which is where they should be when your upper body has folded forward.

[greengirl]

[QUOTE=Release First;7922364]
This was an interesting conversation for me because my definition of a chair seat appears to be different from all of you. When I am correcting a rider with a chair seat it is the thigh that I am working with. In a chair seat your thigh points toward the horses head rather than down to the ground as it should. My correction for a chair seat is to have the rider walk and trot with no stirrups and their knee behind the stirrup leather. This is an extreme position but it will open a closed hip angle which is the cause of the chair seat. I am not working with the lower leg at all at this point. A rider can have a chair seat and still have a good lower leg.

A rider who rides with the lower leg too far forward is going to tend to be behind the motion and not riding very effectively. A good correction for this is the two-one posting because it is hard to stay up that extra beat with your legs to the front. Also standing in the stirrup because again you must have your leg under you to do this.

Watching the video of Lugar with this conversation in mind was interesting. He is often behind the motion coming to a fence but when he is doing the bending line of three jumps (:31-:39) he is actually in a two point. Thus what makes him such an artist on a horse. He adjusts his seat to that what his horse needs at the moment. No set position or rules. As for his position at :58 I do not see a chair set at all but a rider riding forward, out of the saddle.[/QUOTE]

Release First, thank you for helping me think of this differently. This is helping everything my dressage trainer told me gel better in my head. Chair seat is not just about the lower leg, it’s about the pelvis and how you sit (duh…chair…“seat”!).

When I think of the thigh, the downward-pointing thigh allows the energy to pass through my whole body more. My pelvis is tipped forward just slightly, which automatically centers me over my own center, lifts my upper body and head out of the computer position, automatically gives me better posture and helps me look forward, and even positions my arms better, and … voila… my lower leg is back more. Plus, the jarring forces flow down through my knees and ankles. At least, this is how I think of it and how it seems to feel.

When my thigh is more horizontal, I’m back on my seat bones, tipped forward in my upper body, using energy to post in proper rhythm, definitely feeling the jarring in my back. I don’t feel as if the forces are even reaching my knees. They are just stopping at my back. I also tip forward more easily when my horse spooks.

In addition to coming to this forum, I also contacted Bernie Traurig with my original question and he responded very quickly! Anyway, I will be posting it below, if you are interested in reading it.

[greengirl]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7923070]
I think Release First’s point about the thigh is helpful. My thigh points down in my Athena and my PdN knockoff. IT gives that feeling of being “over” my leg that makes me feel balanced without trying. You can make yourself ride that way in any type of saddle, but it can be a fight.[/QUOTE]

Rugbug, thanks for expounding on this for me. So, I see now that I am fighting against my saddle (stirrup bars + tilt), at least partially. Do you think that leg/lower back/hip flexors/hamstring weakness could also contribute to this? I was told that I am not yet strong enough to maintain the correct position. While I know I am out of shape, the idea of having to use muscles to maintain a basic leg position didn’t make sense to me. Is it correct to say that I shouldn’t be using my muscles too much to maintain the correct position? I think this has been addressed before. Yes, you’ve answered it. With the right saddle fit I should naturally be in correct alignment.

[greengirl]

[QUOTE=BK6756;7923155]
I’ve read this thread with interest because for me it seems like it always a choice between heels down (and in front of my hip) or heels under my hip (and level with my toe). I don’t know if it’s a flexibility issue or strength or what?[/QUOTE]

Hi, BK. I have noticed the same thing. I have a “wonderful” heel when my it’s in front of my hips (but who wouldn’t?) and that all disappears when I set my leg back. My toe is supposedly still lower than my toe, but just not nice and low. My trainer told me that it will come in time, but I do wonder just how much I will loosen up!

[greengirl]

gypsymare, thank you for posting those lovely photos! Chair seat or not, you and your horses are gorgeous, especially your TB Paint! It also looks like you were riding one some nice courses.

You photo #1 is what I look like. Just shove my desk chair under me and put the computer in front of me and I’m in my office.

[greengirl]

BERNIE TRAURIG’S response to my question

[QUOTE=greengirl;7918553]
Here’s what confuses me more. I have been watching Bernie Traurig videos and, unless I am mistaken, he teaches the chair seat. Look at what he says starting at :18 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssFCklAH8co
He shows the correct position as having the leg very forward.
This is along the lines of what he shows in the videos that you can watch if you are a paying subscriber. So, if Bernie, a GM disciple says to ride this way, then is this correct?

Is there a divide in the riding world about chair vs no chair?

I am confused! [/QUOTE]

I contacted Bernie Traurig with my question and he kindly responded right away! He gave me the go ahead to share it here (see below), and has also made the Range of Motion video free so everyone can watch it.

I am watching the Range of Motion video now and I have highlighted the following parts (pertinent to my question) for those who may not have the time to watch the whole video right now:

1. 1:21 GM discusses the ear/shoulder/hip/heel alignment as it applies to jumping
2. 3:40 – 5:10 Bernie discusses different foot/lower leg positions

Here is Bernie’s response to my question:

---

There are many many folks confused about this “alignment” you mention.

The topic you watched on you tube is simply an exercise to fix a
riders leg that is habitually too far back and not supporting their
upper body at faster gaits as they topple over their knee. It’s a fix only for this issue.

I don’t advocate the “chair seat,” quite opposite actually as I’m a
huge advocate of the forward seat in the jumping discipline with a
proper leg position.

The alignment you speak of, ear, shoulder, hip, heal is more appropriate in the dressage discipline where collected gaits call for a more vertical upper body position and somewhat less heal depth than the jumping sport as the balance is in the seat, not in the stirrups.

In the jumping disciplines this alignment is only appropriate perhaps in the halt or backing. In the trot and faster gallops the upper body is inclined forward, thereby making it impossible for this alignment.

Even at the walk and normal uncollected canter gaits the upper body is slightly in front of the vertical. Posting trot about 30 degrees inclined forward as in the faster gallops.

I have addressed all this in a video topic called “Range of Motion Exercise with an intro by George Morris” see link below. I do think this will clear it up for you!

http://www.equestriancoach.com/content/range-motion-exercise-introduction-george-morris

In addition please watch my topics, “Building Blocks To A Perfect Position” part 1-5 where you will find all you need to know about the “Classical Position” for the jumping disciplines. You can find all of those here:

http://www.equestriancoach.com/video_library?cat=44&search=building+blocks&favorite=All&viewed=All

---

[DaniW]

When I jump , my instructors want my leg much shorter than when flatting and to be balanced, the leg does sit forward of where it would be, but it keeps me locked in place and its not a chair seat other than the leg being further forward.

It also confused me, but my instructors are all in agreement and when I am in two point or going over a jump the forward short leg does help me balance because I can keep the rest of my body back.