Charging jumps, crow hopping and bucking on the other side ...

[horsingaround777]

Hi all, first time poster here, long time lurker. I have owned a sweet, somewhat sluggish 14-16 year old gelding for about 2 years. I am an adult rider for about 3 years now, coming back from a 20 year hiatus. He came from an eventing background with a teen girl.

About a year ago, on occasion, he started to sort of charge the jumps - and on the other side, crow hop or buck a little. At first it seemed to be over jumps that he particularly felt exuberant about - for instance, a gate that looked a little odd, or if we were jumping in an open field, and I felt it was more playful than not.

But now he is doing it more regularly. About 1-2 strides out, he will sort of take off at the jump, pop over it very high and then throw his weight forward and crow hop or throw small bucks. We’re not talking about big jumps - I only jump around 2’ - 2’3". My trainer suggested an elevator bit which we tried and it didn’t help so I went back to his snaffle - and I don’t personally feel the bit is really the solution. After the jump my trainer advised me to stop and back him. Again, not sure this is the solution, I am thinking forward or turning and moving on is better.

I am working on saddle fit now in case that is the problem. I suspected he had ulcers and moved him to a farm where he has a better living arrangement for him, which seems to have resolved that issue. He gets regular chiro adjustments from my vet. I talked to my vet, she said perhaps he does this because he doesn’t feel confident about the jump and needs more momentum to it - while I am probably trying to keep him quieter out of fear.

It’s not all the time, and I feel it happens more often after a more rigorous flat warm up. Today, during my flat work, I trotted over a few cross rails and he was quiet and easy going.

Any ideas on cause, training recommendations for how to handle it would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.

[IPEsq]

Do a full lameness workup.

[CHT]

I agree with above. The horse is at an age where he is likely starting to feel some joint wear and tear, and he is showing it with his behaviour. Get it checked out before this behaviour becomes habit.

[mojo7777]

I have to agree with the above, as this was the exact way my horse’s lameness first showed itself. Best of luck sorting everything out.

[Dutchmare433]

Saddle fit or hocks would be my first thoughts.

[Melissa.Van_Doren]

Before you call the vet, do a simple bute trial. 1 gram am and pm for three days. And ride all three days. If arthritis is making him reluctant/unable to use his (most likely) hocks correctly, the bute will make him feel good enough that you should see improvement. Then you can discuss with your vet the best course of action (IA injections are usually most cost effective).

[mroades]

I had a wonderful older horse that would do this when his hocks needed injecting.

[ElementFarm]

I agree with above posters – sounds like hocks or something else hurts.

Personally I’m a little bit concerned that your trainer didn’t even suggest it could be physical. Get a vet out, or do a bute trial, and make sure if he’s hurting, you’re not treating it as a training issue.

Does he exhibit the same behavior with your coach or a different rider?

[TrailRides4Fun]

Just some suggestions here -

• Cavelletti work to help him re-focus?
• Maybe use this ^ to restart his jumping training and fill in the training holes.
• Rule out any potential pain issues.

[Daventry]

[QUOTE=Dutchmare433;8459009]
Saddle fit or hocks would be my first thoughts.[/QUOTE]

Agree with what everyone else is saying. Due to the fact that horses cannot speak to us, they have to try and find other ways to communicate with us. The fact that he was fine for the first year you had him is a sign that something has happened or changed and he’s trying to find a way to deal with it.

From what you are describing, it’s not so much that he is actually charging the jumps and “feeling playful” and more of a sign he is likely trying to get the jump over with as quickly as possible and then likely showing his displeasure into the landing. Normally, this happens due to pain.

The other scenario is that he is falling back in his training a bit, getting away with a few things and needs to be ridden by a knowledgeable professional. Has he stayed in a professional program? Meaning, is a trainer schooling him every once in awhile for you to keep him steady and listening properly?

I’d rule out any lameness or pain issues first. If that is not the case, putting a few training rides on the horse may help. I personally would go to another trainer for schooling rides. Don’t want to be negative in regards to your current trainer, but if this has now been progressing for approximately one year and no solutions have been sought except to try an elevator bit, I would want to see him schooled by a more knowledgeable hunter/jumper or dressage trainer to get him going through his paces again and listening to the horse to figure out what the problem may be.

[Gumby80]

[QUOTE=ElementFarm;8459481]
Does he exhibit the same behavior with your coach or a different rider?[/QUOTE]

This could be a good test. While some sort of pain is the first thing that comes to mind, also make sure you’re not accidentally catching him in the mouth over the fence, as this can definitely cause rushing at the jump, and rooting down on the landing side.

[st_francis]

I had a horse that did this when I first started jumping as an adult rerider and it was me me me . I tended to take a hold of her face going into the jump and I had no lower leg going over it and fell back on landing caught her again. Stopping straight after the line was one of the things that we did but fixing my position was the only solution . If either one of us had been less stubborn I probably would have ruined her.

[findeight]

This should have been stopped before it got this far., thats not your fault. Watching it escalate then putting an elevator bit in the hands of a not ready for anything over 2’3" rerider is makes me question the trainer here.

Betting its a combination of going from brave teen eventer at a gallop to more timid, rusty adult in small ring and the effects of accumulated mileage on bocks and back. IME, this will get worse if you fight him with an elevator bit and " riding backwards" instead of finding and solving the actual problems.

[One_Two_Three]

[QUOTE=findeight;8459569]
This should have been stopped before it got this far., thats not your fault. Watching it escalate then putting an elevator bit in the hands of a not ready for anything over 2’3" rerider is makes me question the trainer here.

Betting its a combination of going from brave teen eventer at a gallop to more timid, rusty adult in small ring and the effects of accumulated mileage on bocks and back. IME, this will get worse if you fight him with an elevator bit and " riding backwards" instead of finding and solving the actual problems.[/QUOTE]

This.

Everyone else has said it, too. Look at the hocks/other potential pain. This horse sounds JUST like a horse that recently came through my barn. He is like 14 or 15, eventing background, catapulted over jumps and on the back-side would get into a crow hop that he’d get stuck in. Are you sure you didn’t buy this horse in Florida? Sounds just like this guy. Anyhow, he did this when 1 of 2 things was going on. 1 being that his hocks needed to be injected. A horse of his age with likely a lot of wear and tear from eventing years will likely require some maintenance. The second scenario when this horse was extra ‘willing’ often taking off 1 or 2 strides before he should, somehow not touching the jumps, and landing in a frenzy, often happened when he wasn’t getting enough support. He looked and acted like he was overly confident, however, often times horses who appear as such are actually rather lacking in confidence. The last thing people want to do is ‘bear hug’ (keep your calf on the horse) a horse that is going “too fast” but in my experience, particularly with this horse that reminds me so much of yours, was that he liked the security that the leg gave. He was actually looking for the rider’s directions. If you let him carry you to the jumps, he would panic and do whatever he needed to get through the question unharmed, but he really wanted that little encouragement.

As far as the elevator bit goes…these horses also tend to come with a hard mouth. The guy that came to me did. He had been ridden exclusively in a waterford for quite some time, which he was completely dead to. His next step was being thrown into a 3 ring 3 piece snaffle. This caused him to curl behind and evade even more frustratingly.

The bit doesn’t sound like the issue. It’s likely a combination of soundness and confidence the horse isn’t getting.

[IPEsq]

I’ve known a couple like this where it wound up being stifle not hocks (though the hocks were getting to be not 100% anymore as well). The panic on landing was also lead change anticipation, with lead changes being difficult due to the stifle problems.

Be aware that if you identify a pain source and fix it, this may have become a “thing” that you will have to deal with until the horse realizes it doesn’t hurt anymore.

[horsingaround777]

Thank you so much everyone! Your insights are definitely helpful. He has a very soft mouth, I typically ride in a loose ring snaffle, he came to me from his last owner in this bit. He is not strong at all on the flat - great brakes. He’s a draft cross and has that typical good egg mentality most of the time. This is not the type of horse to expend any additional energy. In his turn out he doesn’t run, buck, etc. If anything he’s a little lazy. So for him to do this is definitely out of character. I didn’t really feel it was behavioral right from the start. We went from comfortably cantering courses 2 - 2’3" with oxers our first year together to now not able to complete a course, mostly now due to my fear from this ongoing situation, and it is frustrating. Some days he’s totally fine and jumps around without an issue. Then some days this happens. He has done it with other rides, not just me. My trainer only rode him once for me and that ride he didn’t do it with her. But sometimes he doesn’t do it with me either - maybe 50% of the time it happens. He doesn’t have a lead change and I don’t even bother trying, we just do a simple so I’m not sure it’s that. And it also doesn’t matter whether it’s a line or not. The only common thread I notice is I think it happens more when we have a particularly longer or challenging flat lesson prior, and when we don’t warm up with small cross rails first, going right to small verticals. Or maybe that is me missing the small warm up first. I think we both need it. I was thinking possibly back (which is why I’m working on saddle fit) and hocks I thought of as well, it makes sense. I will call a vet and have a full lameness work up done on him. I really want to work this out as he is a nice, kind horse. I know in my gut he’s telling me something - it’s my job to listen and figure it out. Just needed some ideas. I appreciate all of your kind and thoughtful responses.

[DMK]

like everyone said, it sounds like pain is the first thing to rule out. I also like a bute/robaxin trial before I call the vet. How they feel/behave before/during/after that trial is good information for the vet to have from an experienced rider. (Note - just because they were the same before/during does not rule out lameness!)

[Foxtrot_s]

I’m glad you are the type of owner who seeks to find the problem and acknowledging that the horse is trying to tell you something. Many others would resort to punishment. I say this all the time - horses do not lie.

[Foxtrot_s]

I meant to add - what girth do you use? My own horse is sensitive in the girth area…friend (actually she’s a quite highly qualified trainer) got on her to try her and put her saddle on my horse using a short girth with wings on it. I was doing the girthing up gently as I know her. Poor horse exploded and went around the whole arena bucking and crow hopping. Then she was fine. I was so puzzled, but she said it had happened before. Never a problem with my own long girth.

[betsyk]

Definitely look at hocks, stifles, back, front feet, etc. Don’t forget the front end - a larger horse landing on a sore front end is going to be pretty unhappy.

But another thought that nobody has mentioned so far – his previous owner, as an eventer, had to do regular dressage with him and probably rode him somewhat differently than you are doing now, as a hunter rider (making an assumption, perhaps not fair, feel free to correct me!). If he’s used to being “dressaged” in between the fences or deliberately put together or rocked back a little more, he may be missing that amount of direction (micromanagement?) and is coming into the jumps less balanced than he needs to be, in order to land nicely and continue in balance. Does that make sense? the eventers I know who ride drafts or heavier horses seem to get a lot of encouragement to work at making them use their back ends, riding forward (“Forward!”) to the jump but really making them engage so they step off the ground lightly and land lightly. Maybe after a year of being ridden differently, he’s losing confidence?