Charlotte Jorst buys Lorenzo - which pipeline did they come through ?

[Mardi]

http://www.dressage-news.com/2017/05…-jurado-lopez/

Of course anyone can buy the horse they want and can afford. No problem there.
I will not get into whether this is the right horse for her.

However, her statement that “I want to do the WEG next year…” sounds as if someone just buys the ready horse,
and it’s a straight shot to qualifying and making the team. She wants to do the WEG in 15 months, so she bought a top horse who will do the heavy lifting for her, and she believes, will get her there. Is that how it works ?

What about the articles we read, and repeated announcements by US coaches saying that US dressage, in order to be competitive internationally, needs to bring horses and riders through the pipeline ? In 2014 the USEF/USET Foundation had Pipeline Clinics with coaches Dover, McDonald and Hassler. Robert Dover, which pipeline did Lorenzo and Jorst come through ?

More importantly, where does this leave the much better riders in the US who are working hard every day to go through the system with clients’ horses (and their $$$$) ? These people are also looking to earn a spot on the team some day.

The mixed messages hurt our sport. Buy a ready horse ? Or develop horses/riders through a pipeline ? Which is it USDF/USEF/USET ?

[dressurpferd01]

I find it ironic that our head coach, Dover, was renowned for having sponsors buy fully made up GP horses to take to the Olympics.

[Hej]

Whether you bring a horse along from a young age or buy an established FEI horse, you still have to meet the criteria and compete in the the qualifiers AND place high enough to make a team.

There is no ‘straight shot’ to the WEG or the FEI top ten, no matter how much anyone may ‘want’ to do it.

[joiedevie99]

This is nothing new. It’s not an either/or. We will send the best scoring combinations regardless of how they came together, or for how long.

The pipeline programs are a movement towards developing our own combinations - but I don’t ever expect to see USEF refuse a combination that didn’t come through the program.

Charlotte is declaring her intention to try. The USEF isn’t declaring its intention to take her - she has to compete for it just like everyone else.

[JLR1]

Pipeline is “code” for money. :lol: Charlotte follows the same pipeline every other top competitor does by purchasing high quality and invariably expensive horses. Sure she didn’t train the horse to GP, but she isn’t a trainer. In this sport you can pay to play as long as you can ride well. It’s not the idealistic vision of dressage being a partnership, but it’s done all the time…even at the local level. Top trainers we see on the podium time and again have wealthy sponsors with deep pockets. They follow the money pipeline buy purchasing international quality young horses for these trainers to bring up the levels. It’s really no different.

[Mardi]

@joiedevie99

This is nothing new. It’s not an either/or. We will send the best scoring combinations regardless of how they came together, or for how long.

Let’s look back on how it worked with Caroline Roffman and Her Highness before the 2014 WEG in Normandy.

After competing in all three of the designated official qualifying shows, she was ranked 4th for team selection. However she was asked to withdraw from consideration because the selectors felt 6 months of GP experience wasn’t adequate and when the results of a non-qualifying show were included, her scores weren’t high enough. After refusing to step down, she was removed, in order to make way for #5 ranked Adrienne Lyle/Wizard.

Caroline’s words at the time are still valid: “I dreamed of this my whole life. I made it there…this could happen to others…I represent a lot of people and their dreams…”

I’m not disputing the selectors’ right to make their choices for the team. But it’s simply not true that “We will send the best scoring combinations regardless of how they came together, or for how long.”

[Cowgirl]

I am kind of sad that Steffen’s sponsors didn’t spot Lorenzo and buy him for Steffen because I think they would suit each other and Steffen could get Lorenzo more supple. I am not convinced that the partnership with CJ is going to be successful and I did enjoy Lorenzo with Severo and sad he lost the ride. As for buying your way in, that is the fact of life in dressage land.

[soloudinhere]

@Cowgirl

I am kind of sad that Steffen’s sponsors didn’t spot Lorenzo and buy him for Steffen because I think they would suit each other and Steffen could get Lorenzo more supple. I am not convinced that the partnership with CJ is going to be successful and I did enjoy Lorenzo with Severo and sad he lost the ride. As for buying your way in, that is the fact of life in dressage land.

Eurodressage reports that the horse has always been for sale. If they wanted him, he was there for the buying.

Charlotte bought 2 other GP horses from Helgstrand so it’s not really a reach to acquire a third from him.

[Tami]

@Mardi

Let’s look back on how it worked with Caroline Roffman and Her Highness before the 2014 WEG in Normandy.

After competing in all three of the designated official qualifying shows, she was ranked 4th for team selection. However she was asked to withdraw from consideration because the selectors felt 6 months of GP experience wasn’t adequate and when the results of a non-qualifying show were included, her scores weren’t high enough. After refusing to step down, she was removed, in order to make way for #5 ranked Adrienne Lyle/Wizard.

Caroline’s words at the time are still valid: “I dreamed of this my whole life. I made it there…this could happen to others…I represent a lot of people and their dreams…”

I’m not disputing the selectors’ right to make their choices for the team. But it’s simply not true that “We will send the best scoring combinations regardless of how they came together, or for how long.”

I seriously doubt Caroline Roffman’s removal had anything to do with TPTB wanting to make way for Adrienne Lyle. There is a lot that goes into forming a competitive yet cohesive team. The selection committee was given that task, and given the results of the Olympics, it looks like they are doing their job. Your example does not translate well.

Sure Charlotte Jorst has the horse to get her to WEG, but now it is up to her to earn a spot on the team.

[netg]

@soloudinhere

Eurodressage reports that the horse has always been for sale. If they wanted him, he was there for the buying.

Charlotte bought 2 other GP horses from Helgstrand so it’s not really a reach to acquire a third from him.

The article makes it sound like she’s not training with him anymore, but I suspect she still does some. And she knows how to ride horses who have come up through his system.

Charlotte is a beautiful rider, who has been taught by someone whose methods I question greatly just from what I’ve seen published and seen of his riding. I hope she will get some more classical/correct training in her move, and hope she does well. I have no problem with someone announcing a goal, and remember reading an article about Charlotte having cancer, not knowing if it will come back, and choosing to go for it while she could. I hope she has young horses coming up as well, but she has faced her own mortality and has the means to buy already made - I can’t discredit that choice.

[ladyj79]

@Hej

Whether you bring a horse along from a young age or buy an established FEI horse, you still have to meet the criteria and compete in the the qualifiers AND place high enough to make a team.

There is no ‘straight shot’ to the WEG or the FEI top ten, no matter how much anyone may ‘want’ to do it.

You are exactly right. You can have all the money in the world, and be able to buy the very best of the best horses, but it still takes the skills to get there.

I know Athina Onassis. She would really like to get to the Olympics. Do you think she can’t afford the horse and the training?

It still takes work, and honestly luck on any given day.

I was at the European Championships when Gal pulled up Undercover with a bloody mouth.

All the talent and skill in the world won’t save you from a bad day, or a bad season.

Certainly money alone won’t get anyone to WEG.

[skydy]

http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2017/05/26/severo-jurado-lopez-lorenzo-sold-charlotte-jorst

[Cowgirl]

@soloudinhere

Eurodressage reports that the horse has always been for sale. If they wanted him, he was there for the buying.

Charlotte bought 2 other GP horses from Helgstrand so it’s not really a reach to acquire a third from him.

Yes, but perhaps Steffen thought he had a WEG horse in Rosamunde and wasn’t looking to buy. I think Steffen would have really been great with this horse. That’s all I’m saying.

[Mardi]

@Tami

I seriously doubt Caroline Roffman’s removal had anything to do with TPTB wanting to make way for Adrienne Lyle. There is a lot that goes into forming a competitive yet cohesive team. The selection committee was given that task, and given the results of the Olympics, it looks like they are doing their job. Your example does not translate well.

As I said, I’m not disputing the selectors authority to make their decisions. But we’ll never know if the switch would have been made if a lesser horse/ rider combo than Lyle/Wizard was holding the #5 spot behind #4 Roffman (who had met the official qualifying criteria).

The Caroline Roffman example was a more than adequate response to the person who commented: “We will send the best scoring combinations regardless of how they came together, or for how long.” It just isn’t true, at least back in 2014, during the run-up to WEG.

[Mardi]

@ladyj79

You can have all the money in the world, and be able to buy the very best of the best horses, but it still takes the skills to get there.

This is true.

Yet after all the talk and encouragement of using pipelines to develop U.S. riders and horses, buying an internationally top ranked GP horse with Olympic experience appears to be nothing more than a short cut to (hopefully) making the team.

This purchase isn’t about forming a horse/rider partnership, and developing correct riding and training (both fundamental aspects of the sport). Jorst says it’s about getting to the WEG the fastest way possible, and being ranked in the top 10 of the world.

If Jorst goes to WEG as a member of the US team, congratulations to her for reaching her goal. But then the US coaches will have lost their leverage with convincing folks the way to mecca is via their pipeline.

[ladyj79]

@Mardi

This is true.

Yet after all the talk and encouragement of using pipelines to develop U.S. riders and horses, buying an internationally top ranked GP horse with Olympic experience appears to be nothing more than a short cut to (hopefully) making the team.

This purchase isn’t about forming a horse/rider partnership, and developing correct riding and training (both fundamental aspects of the sport). Jorst says it’s about getting to the WEG the fastest way possible, and being ranked in the top 10 of the world.

If Jorst goes to WEG as a member of the US team, congratulations to her for reaching her goal. But then the US coaches will have lost their leverage with convincing folks the way to mecca is via their pipeline.

Who on the US team doesn’t ride an import?

I’m not being snarky, I really don’t know.

It’s not uncommon at all to buy horses who are a known quantity when they come up for sale. It’s also not uncommon for people to complain about it… It’s just like a team trading an athlete–someone is always unhappy.

Comments regarding incorrect riding and training are more a subject of personal preference.

Certainly Lopez and Lorenzo had their moments that were good, and not so good. Like (almost) every other horse and rider combination.

[Hej]

@ladyj79

It’s not uncommon at all to buy horses who are a known quantity when they come up for sale. It’s also not uncommon for people to complain about it… It’s just like a team trading an athlete–someone is always unhappy.

.

So very true.
Eurodressage coverage reports on horses changing hands all the time. Young stars going to top riders, made horses changing riders and/or countries, older horses going to YRs.

It’s a normal part of the international competition world.

[Mardi]

@ladyj79

Who on the US team doesn’t ride an import?

I’m not being snarky, I really don’t know.

It’s not uncommon at all to buy horses who are a known quantity when they come up for sale. It’s also not uncommon for people to complain about it… It’s just like a team trading an athlete–someone is always unhappy.

This isn’t about riding imported horses. And it’s not about buying trained horses.

[ladyj79]

@Mardi

This isn’t about riding imported horses. And it’s not about buying trained horses.

What is it about? I clearly missed the point of your post that I quoted.

[yaya]

I don’t think the “pipeline” is meant to be the only way to get on the team. I think it is more a way to increase the number of horse/rider combinations from which to be able to select the team members.

Robert Dover wanted to start with children on ponies and work up from there to improve both the numbers and quality of US riders so we have more depth of possible candidates over a longer period of time. Children on ponies certainly won’t be on US teams for WEG or Olympics!

If a quality horse/rider combination comes out of left field and blows everybody away, (like unknowns-at-the-time Laura Graves and Verdades) then heck yeah, they can be on the team!