Charlotte withdrawing from Olympics?

[DownYonder]

I’ve seen Kottas get pretty aggressive with a whip on multiple occasions, esp. when trying to teach half-steps/piaffe. In one instance, the poor mare just shut down and endured repeated hard slashes on her hind legs because she couldn’t grasp the concept of putting a hind leg up underneath herself instead of behind her. In another instance, he laid into a friend’s horse when it wasn’t picking up its legs fast enough - horse reared in response and went up so high we were all afraid for an instant that it was going to go over (and my friend was on its back!). In another episode, he went after my horse and learned very quickly you don’t do that to my horse without seriously endangering your own life (my horse was big and powerful and he did not tolerate unfair or rough handling - his explosions could register on the Richter scale). That was the last clinic my horse did with him - it wasn’t worth the risk to either horse, rider, or clinician.

Bear in mind that Kottas removes boots/bandages from hind legs when teaching a horse piaffe, so the whip lands on bare skin.

Also, he got pretty adamant that people were not allowed to video the clinic or take pictures, even of their own horse. We thought at the time it was because he was trying to market his own line of videos but now understand that it was because he didn’t want evidence of his “strong” use of the whip to be caught on film.

I will also add that he starts out very gently and methodically, with light touches/taps to teach the concept, but will and does escalate to harder taps, raps, even slashes if the horse doesn’t respond in the way he wants it to.

[Old_Mac_Donald]

Oof.

[Old_Mac_Donald]

@Manni01

Well you only think about Charlotte who you obviously cherish…

I think about blue saddles a bit…

[Manni01]

Why doesn’t this suprise me?…. Obviously you do not have the welfare of horses as a priority but more the welfare of celebrities

[Old_Mac_Donald]

Oh dear, I forgot you are always right. Obviously.

[kt]

@Old_Mac_Donald

If I can find the post, I will cross-post it here.

My point is that everyone is human, and no one is a God. But the more we hold them up as Gods, the worse we are when they falter.

Link to the post you are referencing is pasted below.

So I take it we aren’t allowed to talk about Helglstrand video here?

Wandering over as someone from HJ land. This stuff is nothing is new. I know a lot of folks idolize Reiner Klimke. I was at Madison Square Garden on 1986 or so and had a grooms pass so I stayed at the arena the whole time. I watched Klimke beat, ship, and yank Alrich sp? for HOURS so he could do his demo ride to standing ovations. Unfortunately no cell phone cameras back then, but that “performance” is burned into my brain. As far as shunning, people are still buying horses from PV and AK…so n…

[Sticky_Situation]

It’s good that effort is finally being made to enforce the rules and prevent inhumane riding in the warmup, but it’s a shame that it didn’t get actually cleaned up prior to being in the public spectacle of the Olympics. Dressage has shot itself in the foot by waiting til the biggest, most public stage to crank up its concern for horse welfare.

That said, I hope there was more evidence than a single grainy video still from an animal rights group used as proof of abusive riding.

[Angela_Freda]

Same could be said for this whistleblower waiting til before the Olympics to share this vid.
Dressage, Equestrian sports have had a heads up that things need to be better for a while. But what’s actually been done?
Maybe that’s the “nefarious” reason to release this video before these Olympics?

Because the sports have had warnings, people have expressed concerns, and what has been done about it?
.

[M1ssmouse]

2 wrongs don’t make a right! And I hate the commentators saying ‘we’ve all done things we regret’ actually no, I’ve never in 45 years taken a whip to a horse in any situation, stop trying to make yourselves feel better!

[smoofox]

@2tempe

@Manni01

Maybe think about the horses… do you know that the average sports horse only makes it to 8 years ? How many of these young horse stars make it to an older age?

What do you mean by this - That they only have a 8 years of a career, that they only live to be 8 yrs old, that the break down at 8? Please, more specific and what is the source of this.

??
Then why were so many show jumpers considered to be “young” at 8 - and were jumping well at the top levels in their teens? Also Grand Prix dressage horses showing at that level in their teens?

@pony_baloney

I sometimes think that riders who do nothing but hack around on trails are having the most fun with the happiest horses.

The farm I work/live on borders a huge watershed with equestrian trails that are well used - and one major trail runs along two of our fencelines.

It saddens me to see extremely thin horses silently packing their chatty happy riders along - one with a major sore/rub from his ill-fitting breast collar. This horse lives just down the road by the mailboxes and I always see him standing in the same corner of his paddock, head down, depressed. Without his saddle on, the marks from poor tack fit are obvious. His feet are terrible. I see extremely overweight horses struggling in the heat heading into the trails, knowing there are some hills and switchbacks ahead of them. Or horses dealing with hard hands and harsh bits - with tie-downs on so tight that if they snapped, the horse would flip over backwards. Some riders may be having fun - but their horses certainly aren’t.

The extremes exist in all facets of the horse world.

[Sticky_Situation]

It’s great that you crawled out of the womb as a perfect horseman and have never used a whip in any circumstance.

Most of us aren’t as perfect of horsemen as you, and while we haven’t done what Charlotte is shown doing in the video, many of us have done things to our horses that we later realized weren’t fair. And many of us have tried to learn from those experiences to do better.

That doesn’t mean anyone should get a pass for inhumane training or have no consequences. But if you don’t allow the opportunity for someone to reflect on what went wrong and how they can do better by their horses going forward and give them a chance to act on it, the vast majority of riders are by your definition irredeemable.

[Mondo]

@M1ssmouse

2 wrongs don’t make a right! And I hate the commentators saying ‘we’ve all done things we regret’ actually no, I’ve never in 45 years taken a whip to a horse in any situation, stop trying to make yourselves feel better!

Good for you, really. I applaud your restraint. I’m not trying to make myself feel better, I don’t feel bad. (I feel bad for Charlotte) but I myself don’t feel bad, and yes I have done things that I regret. Doesn’t mean I still do. The air must be really fresh up there on that high horse of yours.

[Annie_s]

I was there. It was wonderful.

[PaddockWood]

@Old_Mac_Donald

And yet Reiner himself came under scrutiny on this board, where a poster wrote that they witnessed him using very harsh warm-up methods at a show.

I remember that post too. She said she saw Reiner whip a horse and not once. That is what I recall. I was in shock and still want to believe it can’t be true. I hope that person posts with their recall of exactly what they remember.

[PaddockWood]

@M1ssmouse

2 wrongs don’t make a right! And I hate the commentators saying ‘we’ve all done things we regret’ actually no, I’ve never in 45 years taken a whip to a horse in any situation, stop trying to make yourselves feel better!

I’m actually quite impressed you’ve never once struck a horse with a whip in your lifetime of riding. I mean that. I also don’t understand hating the comments from those of us who do have regrets in any way getting mad. How does any of that make us feel better? I really don’t understand.

P.S. I am NEVER here to fight. Just learn, share, grow. So that is my agenda.

[mmeqcenter]

@Vindicated

The horse is not actually getting contact with the whip and it is making sound, or hitting the kick boards.

I thought so at first, but, after watching closely multiple times, it’s a lunge whip with a long tail and the tail is definitely hitting the horse. Many times.

Just a personal thing, having been launched from a trainer’s stallion when she cracked the lunge whip behind us when he was being a pickle about a walk-canter depart… I don’t ride with trainers who want to walk behind me with a whip of any kind while I’m mounted. I know it’s a common dressage thing, especially for starting half steps, but I cannot allow it, my brain implodes. And this poor guy, wow, what a saint (more likely poor defeated soul) to not have done more than a kick-out every time he got cracked with that whip. My mare would have absolutely sent me to the moon with the first snap.

@Amordoro

This has been my thought, and a frequent topic of discussion at my barn, since this happened. I have a fairly strong feeling - not from personal experience, though I ride with a trainer who has trained many horses to successful (not international) GP careers - that it is not possible to get a horse to successful international dressage level without at least occasionally engaging in practices that non-horse people, and many amateur types, would find very troubling from an ethical or animal welfare perspective.

@GraceLikeRain

I agree that most of us have very little idea of what is done/required to develop an international GP horse and that much of it would make a person cringe.

Been kind of thinking this a bit for a couple years now - for all upper-level disciplines, not just dressage. English and Western alike.
16-year-old me wanted to be an Olympic show jumper soooooooooo bad. 36-year-old me is incredibly happy to just have my girls coming home again to be in my backyard.

[Old_Mac_Donald]

Thank you!

[skydy]

So this guy gets an FEI yellow card immediately because of this photo (sent by PETA), but the FEI has had photos of Werth and Kittel’s obviously distressed horses for months, and has done nothing.

[jvanrens]

@skydy

So this guy gets an FEI yellow card immediately because of this photo (sent by PETA), but the FEI has had photos of Werth and Kittel’s obviously distressed horses for months, and has done nothing.

Assuming this is the same horse, the pictures were posted by the breeder. PETA didn’t have to look too hard.

CDJ withdrawn from paris

[skydy]

How they got the photos isn’t important, to me.

The FEI has been aware of Werth’s and Kittel’s horses’ distress for months and has done nothing. Perhaps if they do it again in the Olympics someone will get another photo and we’ll see what (if anything) is done this time.