Charlotte withdrawing from Olympics?

[tohorse]

Yes and also shouldn’t escape us that AP is quite literally a daughter of a billionaire AND dates the son of Andreas Helgstrand who has of course sold her at least one UL horse. On that note she has a fantastic string of horses including Gio who just won the European U25.

And I’m also reasonably sure despite her connections to two sanctioned riders there is no (major) abuse happening at her yard, simply because there does not need to be. By and large she rides the finished products of these people’s training.

[Jealoushe]

They can be scared without being in a bolting blind panic, that would be the absolute extreme end of the scale.

[Jealoushe]

@tohorse

We are OK with the whipping going on at racing or Western or even FEI jumping but not in the dressage arena. Any guess how many SJ horses got poled before the Olympics? Nobody will ever know but I can guarantee you that number is >0. These people are just better at hiding the details.

@FitzE

Upper level is a place few people get to. If those of us below that level (or nowhere even near it) don’t and haven’t seen this and find it horrific, that’s a good thing, not a bad thing. It is OUR reaction that should be normalised, not the acceptance of those among us who have been in the rarified upper-level facilities and see it day in/day out at every single facility they’ve been to.

I think it’s important to recognise that a lot of what goes into producing a “good egg” or a “schoolmaster” is not always pretty. Personal experience - both of my horses came to me with history of behavioural problems that somebody else couldn’t quite eradicate (one bucked the other kept backing into things threatening to rear) and it was reflected in the price.

mmmm no one is ok with those things here I don’t think.

The thing is you CAN produce a schoolmaster without those methods. People just chose to use force and abuse instead.

[tohorse]

Have you done it yourself? Multiple times?

[Jealoushe]

@poltroon

I am curious about the context of the video - was this a long term student or was this a horse brought in for a clinic type situation? I am also curious about the rationale for this lesson going in.

It was a sponsored clinic where the rider was given the lesson with CDJ. The sponsor of the clinic is the whistleblower - she’s the trainer from “Your Riding Success” Youtube Channel. I believe this person also rides with Carl occasionally but don’t take that as fact, it was posted online a few places.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I have all the same questions (and I’m glad I can discuss this on COTH, because on Facebook people wouldn’t get it). The lesson didn’t just look “gone wrong” to me but totally contrary to what I’d expect in a good dressage lesson locally even before the whipping. Tight clamped down reins, telling the horse to move forward, ineffective leg sliding back without real pressure applied–yet no telling the student to loosen the reins, regroup, take a lap and rethink. Instead just wild smacking and whaling with the whip at first without even clear direction. It was pointless and bizarre.

And the person laughing who eventually made the complaint–it didn’t sound like nervous laughter.

I wish we knew more about the context before and after the lesson to understand this–not that it would be an excuse, but just because it seems to come out of the blue, without a point. I also agree with people who said that at least with Mark Todd, his actions were understandable (I’m not excusing him) but at least understandable in the moment.

[Demerara_Stables]

@Impractical_Horsewoman

ineffective leg sliding back without real pressure applied

This struck me as well - I’ve always been told to apply more leg before going to a stick, yet the rider doesn’t seem to be using much leg at all in parts of the video. Even more evidence in the “beating it just to beat it” category. If you were training the horse to go forward - wouldn’t you want to use the leg and stick at the same time to condition the horse to go forward just off the leg?

ETA *before using a stick held by the rider

[FitzE]

@Vindicated

The horse is not actually getting contact with the whip and it is making sound, or hitting the kick boards.

When the video clips starts at the short end of the arena near the person recording, the whip definitely hits the horse, no question. I think you can see it hit the horse several times throughout (though the video is low res, for sure).

[FitzE]

@Demerara_Stables

The original video posted by COTH that I saw this morning was cut short. In this video https://youtu.be/3Y8_ROb0ZUk?si=kLxMrNJ8t3wFIHR_ the horse is consistently tail swishing, kicks out at CD multiple times, and tucks his tail away from the whip in at least one instance I can see. If this doesn’t look a stressed horse to you(g) then I think you’ve been desensitized to stressed horses.

thanks for this link

You can absolutely see the whip contact the horse in this version. Also, along the long side, she hits the horses back legs both from behind and then from the front - it’s just willy nilly hitting, no rhyme or reason. She looks like she’s whacking at weeds as he tries to go down the long side. It’s bad and abusive and awful and all that - but it also just looks dumb and thoughtless, no real purpose or plan behind it; just hit, hit, hit. And she laments that the whip is ‘shit at hitting him hard’ so she’d be happy to be doing even worse than this.

It’s just not on. Nothing excuses or explains or makes this less bad.

[Kyrabee]

What gets me is the arrogance of these perpetrators…hello, video capability is on everyone’s person. I am sure (CDJ) was aware she was getting videoed. But even if she wasn’t, one should assume anyone has the ability to video. Apparently 2 1/2 years ago, it (the video) wasn’t a thought. It is now. So I say…come what may. She made her bed so to speak.

I don’t identify with this level of dressage at all. It hasn’t been about ‘training’ for quite a while now.

Susan

[Djones]

@Jealoushe

his body language screams stress and fear. I guess this is the issue that people can’t recognize when a horse is dying inside.

I have been bouncing this scene around in my head with my current 3 very different horses. The old pro would be mad and scared and kick out like this horse did, mentally frying himself up but not in the rafters. The equally aged but only trail training horse would be in the rafters or through the wall. He’s extremely sensitive to any sort of tough pressure and would explode. The younger guy would be wiggling all over, extremely confused and would likely go up and over in this scene.

All of the above are entirely unnecessary strain on any horse’s psyche. If this is what it takes her a trainer of her caliber to push a horse into doing whatever it is she’s wanting
… what on earth are we doing??

[Pico_Banana]

@Jealoushe

If this is the only way to train a horse to get these scores, then it’s time for the tests and what we are scoring to change. Maybe they don’t need to lift their legs THAT HIGH. Or whatever thing they are trying to achieve through beating their helpless horses.

I know I’m way behind in this thread, but this bears repeating. Dressage - in my mind - is training the horse to be the best it can be. It should not need to be said that the horse also needs to be happy in its work. If that limits what a person can “get” from their horse, so be it. It’s more important to have a happy, confident horse than it is to have a flashy one.

[jvanrens]

@poltroon

It’s really confusing that the person laughing while taking the video is the person making a complaint now.

We have no idea who was laughing in the video. It’s possible there were at least three people there from what I’ve read.

[jvanrens]

@Jealoushe

@poltroon

I am curious about the context of the video - was this a long term student or was this a horse brought in for a clinic type situation? I am also curious about the rationale for this lesson going in.

It was a sponsored clinic where the rider was given the lesson with CDJ. The sponsor of the clinic is the whistleblower - she’s the trainer from “Your Riding Success” Youtube Channel. I believe this person also rides with Carl occasionally but don’t take that as fact, it was posted online a few places.

That person is 19? She would have only been 17 or 15 years old, depending on when this video was taken.

[Hidden_Oak]

Raises numpty hand. I do not think an international dressage horse can NOT be stressed in it’s work. It requires high focus by horse and rider. That said, I’ve always admired Charlotte, and Carl for many reasons. It’s a sad day.

[GraceLikeRain]

@Hidden_Oak

I do not think an international dressage horse can NOT be stressed in it’s work. It requires high focus by horse and rider. That said, I’ve always admired Charlotte, and Carl for many reasons. It’s a a sad day.

100%. I don’t think it’s possible to ask a horse to perform with the level of precision, strength, and elasticity of an international dressage horse without a good amount of stress and pushing both horse and rider to their limits. However, I’d naively hoped that some were able to achieve this without resorting to yanking and cranking and spanking to get results. I put Charlotte in that category prior to this coming out.

[Aussie_2020]

Well I’m sorry to say that I was expecting something worse (and yeah, unfortunately I’ve seen worse). To me it looks like CD is flailing the whip around and sometimes it hits the horse and sometimes it doesn’t. Really pretty stupid training trick. If she was trying to get impulsion that isn’t the way so I don’t know what the heck the point of walloping the poor horse was.

[sami-joe]

Agreed.
Ineffective flailing and definitely not an aid or anything approximating an aid. It just made the horse angry.
That said, the wallop from the front looks, from her body language, like a swing coming directly from anger and cruelty. I get the sense that there may have been more before the camera caught up.

[JanM]

An MSN dot com article taken from The Telegraph.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/charlotte-dujardin-damehood-plans-scrapped-as-olympic-champion-has-funding-suspended/ar-BB1qxMib?ocid=mailsignout&pc=U591&cvid=5d8d089a8acc481698f5055e00e0bd42&ei=14

There’s also another article by the BBC:

Charlotte Dujardin: Whipping video released to 'save dressage' - whistleblower

This one discusses why the video was leaked.

[Guyot]

The video is cringy as hell…but no where near the Cesar Para videos… and I mean no where near. She will pay the price for this, she already is. I’m sure she regretted it after and for sure she is not the first or last rider/trainer to make a bad judgement in the moment. Do I think it’s her go to method of training, no. Do I think it’s a tool in her teaching kit when she’s got nothing else to pull, clearly yes.

It’s too short a clip to know why she picks up the lunge whip in the first place. There is no context:. Was this horse stopping up and threatening to rear… was the rider unable to get the horse in front of the leg… did the rider ask for the session to address a backward thinking horse…was there personal issues that caused a short temper that day. We don’t know, we will never know.

However, I personally do not know anyone, myself included, who has been around horses who has not lost their cool and/or made a bad decision that creates a bad experience. When we know better, we do better, period.

The longer you ride and train the better our tools. She’s a world class rider… but maybe not a world class trainer of people just yet. The real proof will be if she knuckles down and learns to train people to ride better. This set down will hopefully let her reflect and do better and give better training to the people who train with her.

I think this a bit of a similar situation to the Mark Todd video, vs the Caesar Para video. To me this video is a frustrated trainer trying to make a horse think more forward… clearly the wrong way to do it. Cesar video is clearly a scared little man who was unrelentingly hitting and diabolically enjoying it so that even when the horse gave the correct response he never backed off… in fact increased the beating.

I will also point out (not knowing any of these people) that sometimes a rider can for multiple reasons use leg and whip aids incorrectly, causing a horse to desensitize to the point they just don’t react to leg and whip at all anymore. I ridden quite a few that I’m expected to “fix” in a training ride or two… it’s horrendous and frustrating to be in this situation.

Can I fix it the right way? Of course. Can it be done in the right way in a ride or two… maybe. Does it usually take a week or two (or more) to put a dull horse back and reliably in front of the leg and get them thinking positively forward, yes, yes it does.

But usually I don’t get that luxury. I have a ride or two to “fix” it. And it’s usually not too pretty. Why I do it (and I’m getting better at saying no to even this) is I know a ugly but fair couple of days is better then weeks and months of constant hitting and spurring by the owners… trying to fix a horse and rider combination like this from the ground is time consuming and requires the rider to be disciplined and methodical to the method… and it will take days and weeks to solidify. Certainly not something you can “fix” in a one off lesson; no matter how much someone is paying you.

Rock meet hard place. Being a trainer and especially at Charlotte’s level has a lot of responsibility, but we are human and we all make mistakes. If there are more videos of this nature out there that would be different, and then we can lump her in with Cesar. If this is a one off of her teaching, I’m willing to give her the benefit of one crappy decision that she will pay extremely dearly for.