Chemistry question about Coppertox

[Scribbler]

Question: what is the difference between copper naphthenate and copper sulfate? I need an evil Chem prof to chime in!!

So there are two different copper ingredients you can use to treat thrush. Both are also in use as wood preservatives.

Coppertox contains copper naphthenate which as far as I can tell is copper mixed with a carboxylic acid that’s a petroleum by product. Petroleum by product always sounds scary to me, but I know completely innocuous things like Vaseline are petroleum byproducts!!

Edited to add: yeah, this should be Koppertox with a K!

Or you can get copper sulfate at the hardware store and mix it in your own carrier (zinc cream or apple cider vinegar or whatever).

Copper sulfate is used as a wood preservative and herbicide, and is mildly toxic.

Coppertox is in a spray bottle and comes with a bunch of warnings on its official product information sheet, but then most spray products do this, and most commercially formulated products have very inclusive warning labels these days.

Is there any basis to the belief that Coppertox is an evil corrosive product and homemade copper sulfate mixes are totally benign?

I don’t have a need for either product, but I am curious.

[Peggy]

Here are MSDS or SDS sheets for both. They list ingredients and hazards.

Coppertox - https://www.zoetisus.com/contact/pages/product_information/msds_pi/msds/Kopertox.pdf

Copper (I) sulfate (pentahydrate, which is the standard one that’s blue; the non hydrate is whiteish) https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/05690.htm

I’m pretty sure it’s the cupric ions that are the critical ingredient. The other ingredients are counter ions (sulfate; naphenate) or solvents.

Copper naphenate is used as a wood preservative: I wonder if its use in coppertox is an offshoot of that.

My vet has advised against thrush buster bc of the formaldehyde being too harsh, but does not object to coppertox on those grounds. IMHO the ability to pack the copper salt into the feet might give you more coverage.

[Scribbler]

Interesting, thank you Peggy! From what you posted it looks to me like Copper Sulfate is also corrosive and can cause burns. I think the extensive warnings on the Coppertox bottle are in part about it being an aerosol and therefore both potentially explosive and something you might inhale.

I was on a chat thread elsewhere where everyone was damning Coppertox as too harsh, and praising home made copper sulfate remedies as mild and harmless.

No one on there could explain the difference. I’m not going to go back and try to explain but my guess is there isn’t such a big difference.

[kashmere]

I often wonder about this myself. I am all for non-caustic thrush treatments. Those gnarly deep sulcus infections can be really painful, and you’re not going to help the horse feel better and use its caudal foot by putting an irritant on damaged tissue. That’s why I personally go with something like artimud or plain old zinc oxide when I need to treat a painful frog.

I have wondered whether the ability to mix CS crystals with something like zinc oxide cream allows the fungicidal benefit of the CS while also having the zinc oxide (which I think is also sort generally antimicrobial) as a buffer? Which would not be possible with liquid copper naphthenate.

On a healthy foot, I have used coppertox or CS crystals under packing like DIM or a pad if the horse is going to be shod or in boots for extended periods, as extra antifungal insurance.

[JB]

Pete’s Goo is a less toxic option for thrush.

And yes, absolutely, you can mix CS crystals with ZnOx

[Pally]

Not a chem expert here, and way too tired to become a google one atm. However, just wanted to chime in, because I clearly remember burning hair off one of my showcalves with Coppertox in my youth. We were treating warts and it dripped down… it wasn’t aerosol, more like a squeeze top. So from then on I was always very careful with Coppertox.

Now mind you I don’t have a direct comparison of using Copper Sulfate for the same task. We did have it around for the cattle, as a footbath in cases of hoof rot. I don’t recall any issues, but then again, it was diluted.

[Scribbler]

Actually Pete Ramey is backing away from recommending Pete’s Goo. One of the ingredients is an OTC antibiotic but apparently there are countries starting to crack down even on OTC polysporin in the quest to stop overusing antibiotics.

So he is now recommending copper sulfate and Desitin (zinc oxide cream).

https://www.hoofrehab.com/Thrush_treatment.htm

[Janet]

I am old, and my Copperox (which I have not used in years) is in a squeeze bottle. I looked for it (to see what the warning levels say), but I could not find it in any of the usual places. Even if I COULD find it, it would not prove much, since the rules about warnings have changed over time.

[Texarkana]

From my years managing an ochem lab, I learned I have a pretty severe sensitivity/allergy to naphthalene compounds. Yet ironically, I believe copper naphthalene is regarded as the less hazardous of the two compounds.

The best advice I ever received regarding thrush was from farrier Rob Sigafoos (developer of the Sigafoos shoe).

He told me to treat thrush like a skin wound. Never use anything you wouldn’t put on an open wound on your own skin. Most of the OTC and old wives tale thrush treatments do more harm than good because the kill sensitive healing tissue in addition to the infectious agents, preventing healing.

[JB]

@Scribbler

Actually Pete Ramey is backing away from recommending Pete’s Goo.

Ah, good to know! That is a good idea, though sometimes you might need the abx part of things.

[Peggy]

@Texarkana

From my years managing an ochem lab, I learned I have a pretty severe sensitivity/allergy to naphthalene compounds. Yet ironically, I believe copper naphthalene is regarded as the less hazardous of the two compounds.

The best advice I ever received regarding thrush was from farrier Rob Sigafoos (developer of the Sigafoos shoe).

He told me to treat thrush like a skin wound. Never use anything you wouldn’t put on an open wound on your own skin. Most of the OTC and old wives tale thrush treatments do more harm than good because the kill sensitive healing tissue in addition to the infectious agents, preventing healing.

Naphenates are not the same thing naphthalene, something I learned today when I finally looked up their structure. For years I’d wondered how in the heck you’d make a stable anion of napthalene. Napthenates are aliphatic carboxylic acids, not aromatic hydrocarbons.

Sorry about all the organic chemistry gibberish. I can attempt to explain in simpler terms if anyone is interested.

[RhythmNCruise]

I am not a chemist and cannot add to the discussion there, but isn’t it Kopertox? The green stuff that stains everything? I’d never seen it spelled Coppertox before, so wondering if it’s a different product.

I haven’t used the green stuff for probably over a decade. I use Tomorrow dry cow mastitis medicine for thrush now. Works like a charm, even for really nasty cases.

[Texarkana]

@Peggy

Naphenates are not the same thing naphthalene, something I learned today when I finally looked up their structure. For years I’d wondered how in the heck you’d make a stable anion of napthalene. Napthenates are aliphatic carboxylic acids, not aromatic hydrocarbons.

Sorry about all the organic chemistry gibberish. I can attempt to explain in simpler terms if anyone is interested.

Makes sense as I low key had a similar question in my high school chemistry teacher mind.

Either way, I have a strong respiratory and contact reaction to both naphthalene the aromatic hydrocarbon and Koppertox. And some moth balls FWIW. The Koppertox now seems to be unrelated to the other two.

[tikihorse2]

@RhythmNCruise

haven’t used the green stuff for probably over a decade. I use Tomorrow dry cow mastitis medicine for thrush now. Works like a charm, even for really nasty cases.

Tomorrow is an antibiotic. Is this still widely used to treat thrush, since other antibiotics are being discontinued due to fear of developing resistance?

[Scribbler]

I think it’s only Pete Ramey with his international perspective who is thinking about not using antibiotics.

[Scribbler]

Interested in the explanation of what a napthalene is!

[Peggy]

@RhythmNCruise

I am not a chemist and cannot add to the discussion there, but isn’t it Kopertox? The green stuff that stains everything? I’d never seen it spelled Coppertox before, so wondering if it’s a different product.

I haven’t used the green stuff for probably over a decade. I use Tomorrow dry cow mastitis medicine for thrush now. Works like a charm, even for really nasty cases.

Probably. I just went with the flow.

[tikihorse2]

Thanks, Scribbler. I’m still wondering if it might be better to use other treatments before resistance develops. Heaven knows it’s better to prevent things rather than have to scramble to find a new treatment!

[Scribbler]

I’ve never needed to treat full blown thrush. The most I’ve done is spray on some iodine or Gentian Violet when the feet look a little soft and wet. So I don’t really know how much fire power you need to fight persistent or serious thrush.

[Texarkana]

I’m not @Peggy but naphthalene is just a chemical compound. It’s shape is something called an aromatic hydrocarbon, which in very oversimplified terms just means its carbon atoms are attached in a ring-shape.

Wikipedia tells me it was originally isolated from coal tar. It’s really just used in occasional industrial purposes that I couldn’t speak about in much detail as a layperson. It produces strong vapors, so that property was taken advantage of at one time for mothballs… but now we use “safer” alternatives.

I mistakenly assumed copper naphthenate involved or contained naphthalene. I should have known better. The reason I should have known better is that naphthalene is a stable compound on its own, and therefore wouldn’t just “bond” with copper. In chemistry nomenclature, different endings on the same root of the name indicate different chemical structures, so it should have been a dead giveaway to me that “naphthenate” was not equivalent to “naphthalene,” I just never put much thought into it and rolled with my misconception. My misconception was unfortunately reinforced by the fact that I personally have a very similar allergic reaction to naphthalene, which I encountered a lot working in chem labs, and Kopertox. I have trouble breathing around it, I get a rash if I touch it, etc. But they aren’t the same chemical at all.