Choosing TB or Arab stallion suggestions

[Robin2]

Hi folks -

Wondering if you might have any TB stallion suggestions for an arabian mare (but also open to arabian or anglo-arab stallions). Plan on breeding within the next year. She is competing at 50mile endurance rides at the moment and doing very well, but I am originally from a hunters and lower level eventing background and am hoping to cross her with a TB stallion to get a horse that might be a bit more versatile in that area as well. I have included her pedigree here for what it’s worth, although I’m just starting down the road of pedigree research.

Mare strengths: Straight legs, strong even back, conformationally very correct. Has great feet and is very sound
Mare cons: 14’3. No withers (classic arab withers, but not too barrel chested). Scopey jump for size but hesitant over fences (can’t say for sure if it’s because she’s lacking experience or that’s her personality)

She has passed her initial vet checks for conformation and breeding suitability, and is very well put together- although she is only 14’3. My goal is not to compete at high levels (personal choice, I am too competitive to let myself go down that road). However, a nice versatile sport horse would be ideal.

Located in Canada. Open to live cover or AI, have a good breeding vet ready to assist if needed

[Montanas_Girl]

Hmm. Are you dead-set on a TB cross? I only ask because your mare has a lot of “hot” in her pedigree (in my opinion), and I’m not sure a TB would be the best cross to get you what you’re wanting. If your primary goal is getting something suitable for lower level eventing and/or hunters, I think I’d be more inclined to go with a warmblood stallion known for siring really good-minded, ammy-proof horses.

Also, do you have any conformation photos of her, especially her legs? With her being double Bey Shah, I’d want to find a stallion with VERY correct leg structure who is consistently passing that along.

Edited to add: Welcome to COTH! It’s always nice to have another Arab person join us here.

[Robin2]

Not 100% dead set on the cross, no. I agree re: having a lot of hot in her pedigree, based on my preliminary arabian bloodline research (literally just starting a few weeks ago haha, so take with a grain of salt). I know Bey Shah is known for the hot temperament but this mare is actually quite level headed (I have a TB and a draft-TB cross and I’d say she’s on the same level as the draft cross). My experience is that she probably took a bit more work to get that level headed than if she had been a warmblood to begin with but it was actually more a training question than anything else.

Legs wise- I don’t have pictures off the top of my head but can get some. I understand the Bey Shah have club feet at times? Not sure if there’s anything else he tends to pass along. I’ve had her double vetted by two sports med vets specifically because of the double bred situation, and one of the farriers that works with the sports med vet also has examined her and has been doing her feet for the past few years. I consulted the farrier on her feet and conformation as well. All three were quite impressed with her and I made sure to tell them that ANY hesitancy on their part would mean I would not breed this mare.

One of the other options I had been considering was an Irish Draught cross stallion who is sturdy but not too big and very level headed, he is competing in eventers now, but I haven’t strayed from the TB crosses very far yet because the only thing the vet was concerned about was the size problem when breeding to a warmblood stallion - they had suggested that because she is smaller and this is a first foal, a warmblood baby might carry a higher chance of a fetus that is too big.

I welcome any/all thoughts and suggestions though, I know arabs generally do cross well and would be interested to hear what sort of stallion size recommendations they might have.

To be honest I’m also not into backyard breeding and if there are red flags that pop up along the way from the vets or professionals who are looking after her then I am actually just going to stop there. I started with conformational assessments as described but she hasn’t had a pre-reproductive ultrasound from the repro vet yet so we are just starting down this road.

[beowulf]

Artrageous
Saketini
Friend Or Foe

All great temperaments, and good crosses for low level work. Saketini would be top on my list as a good complement to an arabian mare. Artrageous will round out the frame but seems to keep type while making a bit more “huntery”.

[Montanas_Girl]

How old is she? A good repro exam is definitely where you should start, especially if she’s an older maiden mare. It sounds like you’re more than doing your due diligence. You’re already aware of the potential club foot issue, so you’re clearly doing some research.

Saketini is owned by our very own @EventerAJ and seems to be siring very good-minded offspring. That’s a great idea I hadn’t thought about for a TB sire.

The nice thing about Arabs is that they cross well with a variety of breeds and types (not that I’m biased at all!). The right ID could be an interesting option. Or what about an Irish Draught Sport Horse with a high % of TB blood? I’m not familiar enough with the breed to know what stallions are out there, but that idea just popped into my head.

[Mulligan314]

Is the con on her size due to the breeding aspect of breeding to something bigger, or do you want something bigger?

Totally off base, Spring Hollow Statesman is a Morgan stallion from Statesman line known for producing some boss sport horses. While he is more of a working western horse, the lines are big time sport lines. Here’s an article: https://www.morganhorse.com/upload/photos/206SIGSIREStatesman2011.pdf

[DawnJL]

You could also consider a Trakehner stallion. If you present her at an ATA inspection and she is approved the resulting foal could be registered as a Trakehner. There are several Trak stallions with eventing credentials listed HERE.

(I’m presenting my Arab stallion to the ATA later this year, so I have Traks on my mind.)

[allanglos]

I have two Anglo Arabian stallions and two TB stallions (who are both black and white overo). Nothing is better than an Anglo! www.allanglos.net

[Robin2]

It’s the breeding aspect- I don’t want to breed her to an overly large stallion as she is a maiden mare and I don’t want to chance increased complications. I know the foal usually adapts to the uterus and not the other way around, but repro vet figured to minimize risk, stay with a stallion 16h or under.

He certainly is a beautiful horse- thank you! I am open to non TB suggestions.

[Robin2]

That’s a very good point. I used to ride a Trakehner and I think so far they are my favorite warmblood.

Looking at the link now. Thank you!

[Robin2]

Thanks so much for your input. I’m waiting to hear back about the Irish Draught Sport horse extended pedigree. I’ve met the stallion and he is quiet and quite warmblood-y overall. So far I’m seriously considering him.

I also went down the Trakehner rabbit hole a bit on another suggestion so as you said, maybe TB is not the right mix? We’ll see. We have our repro ultrasound next week, so we’ll probably know then if we are moving forward or not.

[exvet]

Not to dismiss any of the concerns referring to Bey Shah and his get; but, our hands down best horse of all time was a Bey Shah gelding (of course he also was a Khemosabi grandson through his dam. I purchased him from his former owner at the age of 8 because he was too ‘hot’ for her. I found him not to be too hot at all just needing to have his energy channeled which was easily done through gymnastic exercises and giving him a job with full-time turnout. This guy did inherit the club foot; but, he went from training level through third level earning my bronze medal for me. If he had been a mare only the club foot would have prevented me from breeding. It was easily managed and this guy never ever had any trouble with it. He taught my kids how to ride and how to show after I received my bronze. I never, ever had to worry about any beginner I put on him. He always knew his job and took it seriously once it was explained to him. I like the sounds of your mare and would be considering breeding her myself if I were still breeding. I agree with looking for a stallion with a track record for producing good discipline and exemplary leg and hind end conformation, not just possessing it himself. I also don’t worry about size difference even in a maiden as long as your breeding like to like in build (similar pelvic/hip/barrel shape and alignment.) I bred more than one maiden 13-14 hand mares to my 15 and 15.1 hand stallions without issue but they were all built very much the same - stout. I think you could find a trak, morgan or TB stallion to fit your bill.

[TKR]

SOOOOOO many Thoroughbreds are FAR from “hot”! It’s so unfair to use that generalization. And I say that from VAST experience, stood two TB stallions for over 30 years and was a licensed trainer at the track. I could ride either of my stallions with a halter and leadline, did an entire dressage test for a client looking for temperment in that. A good Thoroughbred sport-types stallion would give you some potential size and alot of talent for eventing. I bred one that was USCTA horse of the year twice - went to prelim and then backed down to schoolmaster for younger riders and pony clubbers. I also thing TKs are a good bet - they have alot of Arab in their mix and are doing great in eventing. I would avoid a big heavy draught - so unlike the phenotype of your mare and bring nothing really to the mix that you want. Good luck!

[Robin2]

Thank you!

I agree that TB’s are so varied overall. One of the nicest horses I’ve ever owned was a very unassuming TB mare. She had the best mind I’ve ever seen, to the point where I couldn’t believe how willing she was and kept waiting for the other shoe to drop. She passed in her teens unexpectedly and it broke my heart right in two, almost considered quitting horses. Comparing the TB’s I’ve ridden to the warmbloods, with the exception of a couple of very nice Traks, TBs are a clear favorite for me.

I’m trying not to get too caught up in the stallion search until her repro ultrasound but hopefully that turns out clean!

[Robin2]

It’s awesome to hear your experience with a Bey Shah offspring! I have not met many of them and love to hear what other people have noticed.

I will say my little gal was hotter to start than some other horses might have been (I’ve had her since she was two) but she’s very willing and as soon as we figured out how to keep her mind occupied (read: she LOVES adding mental exercises to the ride) it was like she was a brand new horse. It took her about 7-8 years to mentally mature out, but now she is settled, and quiet and very lovely overall with good ground manners. I can take her to an endurance ride, ask her to wait while the horn sounds and the entire stampede is off, and then ride her leisurely at my own pace after everyone has left and she is amazing (I was initially concerned about the herd mentality at endurance rides so this is how we started). I’ve done a few 25-50 mile endurance rides with her totally alone (and we’ve ridden the entire way alone) and she doesn’t seem to fuss. The other thing about her is that I swear she can read my mind. She is sensitive and picks up on cues so easily, in the saddle and out - always a good reflection of my own state of affairs! She’s also weirdly in tune with how experienced people are that ride her - a few kids have ridden her and she’s always extra gentle and docile with beginners. Overall if the foal was like her, I wouldn’t be concerned.

I’ll be doing some more research into stallions with a good track record for breeding. I’m finding it a bit complex distinguishing between those known to produce good feet and those who have straight feet and are unproven…Definitely leaning TB and then Trak. I suspect that if I find a proven TB stallion I may need to have frozen semen shipped and am hoping this won’t be much of an issue (in our area, lots of TBs but the breeding track record isn’t as well established). Thank goodness for repro vets.

[Willesdon]

Your mare sounds delightful, a real treasure, and I hope you find just the right stallion for her .

I’m on a hobby horse here, but may I point out that there are genes from 20 other horses in her pedigree back 3 and 4 generations, so being worried about a club foot from Bey Shah seems slightly unnecessary. Bask is there twice, as is Bay el Bey, too.

Which ever stallion you choose, temperament and brain are probably the most important trait.

[Texarkana]

@Willesdon

I’m on a hobby horse here, but may I point out that there are genes from 20 other horses in her pedigree back 3 and 4 generations, so being worried about a club foot from Bey Shah seems slightly unnecessary. Bask is there twice, as is Bay el Bey, too.

While I generally completely agree, some of these Arab hoof/leg faults are PREPOTENT.

I say this as someone who grew up on a pretty large Arabian breeding farm. It felt like every other horse had a club foot or severely offset cannons. It’s really bred in there.

I moved on to WBs and TBs after I left home and they don’t have anything like that endemic in the breeding population to that extent.

Interestingly, the faults never caused career limitations, which is a nod to the soundness of the breed.

[DawnJL]

@Texarkana

While I generally completely agree, some of these Arab hoof/leg faults are PREPOTENT.

Which is why I am proud to say that the Arabians in my breeding program have great feet. The breed was once known for strong balanced hooves, and some lines were never bred away from that. My farriers have always raved about the good feet of my horses. I’ve never had a club foot in any of my foals, nor in any of my foundation stock.

[DawnJL]

@Robin2

The other thing about her is that I swear she can read my mind. She is sensitive and picks up on cues so easily, in the saddle and out - always a good reflection of my own state of affairs! She’s also weirdly in tune with how experienced people are that ride her - a few kids have ridden her and she’s always extra gentle and docile with beginners.

This is probably the element that drew me to Arabians. I really enjoy the responsive connection with their minds. I had that same connection with my blind TB, so it’s not just an Arabian thing, but I’ve found it to be very characteristic of many representatives of the breed. I’ve also definitely had several Arabians that had different modes for beginner versus higher level riders.

[SusanO]

You might not get a whole lot of size increase. She is pretty inbred to horses that are rather small. I always thought Bask was a bigger horse but friends of mine that had bred to him and actually saw him said he was not much bigger than a pony. So her genetics are pretty consolidated. The good news is that you probably won’t get any surprises and she will probably breed pretty true to her type. The bad news is that she will probably breed pretty true to her type size wise.

I would look at stallions that had already been bred to Arabians to see what they have produced and if they increased size. And I agree - looking at Trakehners would be breeding type to type more than some of the other crosses. Some Trakehners have Arab blood several generations back and are generally not heavy types.