Chronic Scratches - ideas and suggestions welcome!

[PaddockWood]

@Zevida It sounds like we still haven’t totaled the minerals you are getting right? Very important.

Here’s the link to Pete Ramey’s advice - through Dr. Kellon etc - on the total minerals recommended for laminitis - also inflammation. Makes it kind of easy to total.

From the article…

" My “Poor Folks Cheater Diet” is inferior to custom balancing, but will make a dramatic difference anywhere in the world for pennies per day. Per 1,000 pounds (450kg) body weight, feed daily 450mg of zinc, 150mg of copper (double these two if iron is high in ground and water), plus 2 tablespoons of plain white loose salt. If the horse is eating hay instead of grass as the primary forage, add 3,000 iu of human vitamin E oil pills and a cup of fresh-ground or stabilized flax every day. If the horse is having uncompensated sugar problems (splat-footed horse on green pasture, etc.) add 10 grams (less-than-level tablespoon) daily of magnesium oxide - decrease magnesium oxide dose if stools loosen - discontinue magnesium after 6 weeks, pending forage testing to balance with calcium and phosphorus.

2013 Edit: While feed testing and custom balancing continues to be the best you can do, a new product California Trace Plus (877-632-3939) is covering most of the key nutritional problems in most areas of the US. It is a well-crafted concentrated supplement, with high copper and zinc, no iron, decent E levels, antioxidants, an impressive amino acid load, high A, high biotin, and (optional) probiotics added. It has quickly become my go-to supplement, and I have seen excellent results in my area and all over the US."

Link:
https://www.hoofrehab.com/Diet.html

[lenapesadie]

Do you think there’s some sort of conditions at the boarding barn that played into the scratches developing?

I keep my horses at home but my scratches boy came with said scratches when I adopted him. I guess I’ve been presuming that if I got the scratches healed they’d stay healed but now I’m paranoid that I need to do something preventative.

[IPEsq]

Hi @lenapesadie, can you switch from iodine to a chlorhexadine shampoo like Equishield CK? The peeling might just be irritation from so much iodine scrub use. And you don’t want to open up any more skin to expose it to more infection. We see a lot of scratches here for some reason (not much mud, almost desert but some bacteria clearly lives in the dirt on some farms, plus photosensitivity and flies are a huge contributor in summer). My vet recommends a milder antibacterial shampoo like CK for daily scrubbing. It also can (should) be left on for a few minutes, and that too can help loosen existing scabs.

In a pinch, I’ve even just used purple shampoo. It’s pretty clarifying so cleanses the area well enough. Also helped cut thru the Equiderma Zinc cream I’d use in summer when it had gotten gunky. Since you are on IV abx I don’t think it’s critical to be so antiseptic with your topical cleaning, especially if there’s any skin irritation from that.

[lenapesadie]

I do have some chlorahexadine shampoo. I may try switching off the iodine as the areas do look like they are drying up (which is what we wanted as opposed to oozing bacterial infections) but horse is also acting like flexing those areas is uncomfortable.

Poor horse can’t win for losing.

[Catherine616]

I don’t know if there is something at the boarding barn … I asked the vet and she said “you can’t completely sterilize the environment” and that it is a combination of bacteria, fungus and even often overpopulation of normal skin flora. Within 4 days at the rehab center he started improving when I haven’t been able to get them cleared up in over a year. I asked them to back off the salt and PEMF therapies to see what happens.

[Catherine616]

My boy’s got dried out - and then too dry - scabs started turning dark and tight and were very painful.

[lenapesadie]

Ugh. We can’t just keep the horses on abx forever!

Obviously my place isn’t sterile like a surgical theater or anything, but it’s pretty clean. Grass mowed fairly short, all poop picked out of paddocks, no mud. I can just see myself trying to kill germs in my paddocks

Thank you for sharing about your horse getting painfully tight scabs. That helps me feel better, like I’m not alone. My poor old guy almost looks like he has stringhalt if he is still for a while and then walks off. It gets better / goes away after he moves a bit but I sure do feel bad for him.

I’m going to do better about rubbing his legs dry after washing them. I’ve been slacking there. I just got done washing him and drying him off. Skin flakes / scabs / gunk flaking off like crazy. Eww.

[CindyCRNA]

Still going ok? My guy got scratches every year until we used the Shoo Fly boots but everyone is different.

[lenapesadie]

He’s kinda stalled out really. This is the best it’s ever been, but he still has lesions on his legs. And has some lameness issues going that may or may not be related. More vet bills coming.

I read on COTH, maybe your post?, about using shoo fly leggings. I have a set and tried them on him last year. He lost his mind. Going backwards and spinning in circles. I might try again though as compared to last year his legs are in way better shape.

So your horse got scratches every year? Like they got better/healed at some points during the year? My old guy came to me with this mess a year ago and he’s never once been “healed”. Gotten less bad, sure… but …Constant battle. I dunno what I’m going to do with myself if I ever have a time where I’m not doctoring his legs all the time.

[Catherine616]

Mine is coming home today. After battling the scratches for a year and a half I moved him and they used a salt chamber and electromagnetic boots, the scabs started healing after 3 days and were gone in a week. I’m nervous about them coming back but I wonder if it could be a bacteria or fungus in his former pasture. I have never read about salt as a treatment and am wondering if that could have helped too. Good luck. It’s a horrible condition.

[lenapesadie]

So glad your guy is coming home! Fingers crossed that he doesn’t have anymore issues!

I don’t have a rehab place handy, or I might send him off! Waiting on call back from vet.

ETA: I wonder if I could sneak him down to the beach and make him stand in the Gulf. That’s saltwater. Joking.

[Zevida]

Update!

I got a referral to take my horse to UC Davis for a dermatology consult. After the examination they said we could keep trying different topical ointments or do a biopsy. Biopsy please! They took a sample from each leg (2 biopsies).

The diagnosis is:

The biopsy results were consistent with leukocytoclastic vasculitis. Solar elastosis, or UV light induced skin changes were also noted; this suggests light exposure may be exacerbating the lesions.

Basically it means his blood vessels are contracted which reduces blood flow and causes the lesions and swelling. He is now on a topical steroid spray for the lesions, and he is starting an oral medication that helps open the blood vessels. The steroid spray can cause skin to thin so after the first few weeks we want to reduce use to as infrequent as possible. The oral meds he may need to be on for weeks or months as it takes time for them to show impact.

We will also make sure he keeps his fly boots on to reduce the UV exposure - I had only had them on the back legs but I am going to order more so we can keep them on all 4. I asked about alfalfa and the vet said not an issue for this kind of vasculitis. We will also not clip his legs - needed to do that for the ointment, but the steroid spray can permeate through the hair, and more hair on the legs will provide UV protection.

Unrelated (not because of the scratches) we are moving to a new barn at the end of the month, so will also be interesting to see if a new environment helps. The facility and care are both improved at the new place - not dramatically but things will be a little better.

[lenapesadie]

That’s very interesting! Thanks so much for sharing!!!

Good luck!

[Ghazzu]

@Zevida

I got a referral to take my horse to UC Davis for a dermatology consult.

Did you see Dr. Stephen White?
(he was one of my teachers, and I love the man.)

[Zevida]

@Ghazzu

@Zevida

I got a referral to take my horse to UC Davis for a dermatology consult.

Did you see Dr. Stephen White?
(he was one of my teachers, and I love the man.)

I did not, I saw Dr. Outerbridge.

[lenapesadie]

Vet called and came out. Thinks scratches are much improved (which I agree with) but still needs more “work”. More abx, Exceed this time. His culture sensitivity test thingy showed strep but vet thought that might be environmental contamination. So this abx targets that and we are going to step up anti fungal topically. Recheck next week. Might do fungal testing. Might need a second round of the gentamicin IV.

Also cold hosing and Bute as he’s puffed up with cellulitis. Poor old guy. He’s been a real trooper about all this.

Kudos to the vet for showing up same day, at the end of what looked and sounded like a long and hard day for her.

[Catherine616]

Cellulitis from the scratches?

[lenapesadie]

Yes, that’s conclusion at least. It’s debatable though as he blew an abscess through the front of the coronet on the other hind leg after it puffed up.

He’s only got a small amount of “fill” in one hind leg now. Gave him his second exceed abx shot yesterday. Still getting a gram of Bute daily. I think tomorrow is last day of Bute.

The lesions from the scratches are looking smaller, but they are still there Currently, washing with a malasab (sp?) shampoo and alternating abx ointment and anti fungal ointment. May try lime sulfur spray again. I’ve done two rounds of it previously without a ton of luck but that was before hitting him with the targeted abx. I’m hoping to avoid another round of the IV abx but will make it happen again if needed.

As a general contribution to this thread, I found this article interesting.

Solving Skin Issues on Horses' Legs – The Horse

[Catherine616]

Interesting article, especially the part where it talks about scratches not being a condition itself. Is there any way you could post a picture of your horse’s legs? I’ll try to post one of my boy’s. I’m curious if we are dealing with the same thing.

[lenapesadie]

These pics are about a month old. Glad you prompted me to find them as it’s highlighting how much better it looks currently.

I’ll see if I can find pics of when I first got the horse. The scabs stuck out a couple inches from his skin. ‘Twas awful.

I’ll get some current pics this week too. Be like a case study.

How’s your boy doing?