Chronicle's report on Morris accident

[Cindy]

With a due respect since this is the Chronicle’s BB, I found this “news” article to be a rather sanitized version of what happened.

GM was given an opportunity to provide a lot of excuses. Only he was interviewed and two of his students?!

No one who was there could determine whether the horse died as a result of being impaled on the pole?! Why wasn’t the vet interviewed?

What about the viewpoint of an upper-level trainer who does not find it necessary to school over metal pipes?

Is a horse’s death while jumping a metal pipe really a freak accident?

If jumping metal pipes in schooling areas is not permitted according to AHSA rules, why allow it at all?

I criticize some actions/events of which I have no first-hand knowledge and sometimes recommend change. So do members of Congress, executives of corporations, and other decision makers. I was not aware that you had to be in attendance to have an opinion about an event, accident, etc.

Apparently, I will need to request that the AHSA conduct an investigation. I am not a member, but I believe horsemen/women deserve more facts.

[woodbern]

Now, now, now… let me jump right in here and brace myself for the pious comments sure to follow! Feeling brave today, I guess.

For those of you who take every written word as gospel, well… enjoy yourselves. You are the prototype of what the media loves! You believe everything they tell you… no muss, no fuss. You make their job easy.

Now, I appreciate Nancy Jaffer writing something, no matter how fluffy it was. I appreciate The Chronicle presenting their piece on it, too. As well as Ken Kraus giving us GM’s version… All seemed to be carefully written to obtain the same outcome, i.e. this was completely an accident, poor George for being unfairly criticized, etc.

I continue to believe that an outside story written by a reporter totally non-involved with the industry would alleviate any concerns of bias.

None of this changes my mind about this one fact: this incident (“accident” if you prefer) need not have happened.

I may have made this comment before, so forgive me if I repeat… everyone who believes that Mr. Morris has been in the horse business for 50+ years, and it has never occurred to him that a metal pipe or pole might be dangerous for both horse and rider, raise your hands real high!

Oh yeah, marianne, how do you know that some of those who put down a “real” name (Trixie, Bambi, Marianne, Ashley, Brooke, Whoever…) are not using aliases, too? Are you clairvoyant?

[Pat]

HMM, just catching up here too.

One more thanks to Erin for the preview. Am I correct in assuming that this will be slid into the In The Country section and followed up by more in depth reporting? I also felt the account was a bit sanitized and one sided. I like Nancy Jaffer, but she does lean towards fluff…

I also have not changed my opinion one little bit. Light and flimsy my butt, it’s still a metal pole. Think about it, even if that had been bamboo and he came down on it hard enough to pierce the chest (or where ever) the bamboo would have been more likely to splinter and not be driven too far into the body cavity.

I still think it comes down to his arrogance and vanity. Of course he didn’t INTEND this to happen, he’s not a monster. But the jump was still there for a reason, if he didn’t expect a horse to hit it, it would have been made of wood rails.

I also think that PVC rails are awful. They have both where I teach; PVC and wood. I used the PVC’s once only to cringe and watch them fly in any direction when hit. They were only set at 2" too, couldn’t imagine something higher.

Oh, um, Marianne, is it? I’m not “hiding” behind an alias. If I used my email handle instead would you accuse me of that? I see that your last name is not included either, so how would anyone know you didn’t pull Marianne out of the air? I just don’t like to see people shaking thier fingers at people who have a right to protect their privacy.

[Gayle]

Question for Erin or anyone else who may know the answer. Someone criticized me for staying on the NHJC bb. What the heck is it? I don’t know that I have heard of it by that acronym. I can say that I frequent several bb’s but only participate when I feel that there is something that I can contribute to it or if I have a question that their particular forum can answer.
Thanks for the support to everyone who wrote in!
I wasn’t going to mention this but I have changed my mind. A VERY GOOD friend of mine has a very close client relationship with George Morris and Hunterdon and he did e-mail them copies of the page and what was being said. Let me make it clear: HE HAS NOT HAD A CHANCE TO SPEAK TO THEM DIRECTLY YET. So for those people who think that he doesn’t know what is being said you couldn’t be more wrong. I suggested to him today that he might want to e-mail copies of the retractions as well. While I am sure that George is used to the firestorm of criticism that his methods and mannerisms create it, is always nice to know that there are people who are willing to admit that they jumped to conclusions, made assumptions and are able to apologize.

[marianne]

This is my real name and yes I do understand the need for privacy to protect yourself. I do believe that people will say things not normally said in a situation where it will not be attributed to them. Frankly I was shocked at the “venting of spleen” prior to the facts being published. I do not agree with the poling in any form and I am not defending George Morris. I am very concerned with the nastiness of the horse world. I have been active in the horse world in some form since the 60’s. I have done every type of riding from Western, rodeo, trail riding, wilderess packing, eventing, jumpers, hunters equitation and now dressage. I prefer dressage. I am now getting back into riding after a 8-9 hiatus to have two kids. One thing has not changed-The particular nastiness of harpies that live in the horse world-not just horseshow parents who push there children but people who just don’t seem to say anything nice. Where is civilized discussion about issues? Or do we have to resort to name- calling and bashing, catty remarks? Sure it’s your First Amendment Rights. It’s also my First Amendment rights to say anything nasty about someone and to be politically incorrect. But will it change the world. Probably not-besides when you throw shit, some will always splatter on you. Unfortunately the Internet has allowed just about anything to be said on forums with no regards. To those of you who disagree, sorry- e-mail me. To those of you who may say “don’t read”; Well, then: Nanny, Nanny Boo Boo…

[This message has been edited by marianne (edited 02-04-2000).]

[Monica_S]

The fact that many trainers use metal poles does not change the problem. It is only pointing out how widespread the problem is. But again, I will say, this is not about ‘Get George’ - because to simply ban him or whatever, only makes him the bad guy, and nothing else needs to change. He was NOT doing anything unusual, but the question is, was he doing something that was in the best interest of the horse, the rider, and the sport? Had every other avenue been explored that could be causing poor jumping form? I think that the fact that every horse in the clinic was asked to jump this fence tends to indicate it was not a last resort measure. It seems more like a quick and dirty trick to intimidate the horse (whether by pain or surprize at the ‘noise’) into pulling his knees up higher. Are horses lazy by nature? Do they need to be bullied into giving their best effort? Or are they willing partners who try their best, but if blocked by pain, will just look for the least painful solution? If it is the second, then yes, increasing the pain of the jump may increase their effort. But maybe making sure the saddle is correctly placed, and the rider isn’t too heavy on the forehand, and the horse is sufficently supple from ground work and he isn’t in pain would do the same trick. And then the horse wouldn’t wind up sour from working between a rock and a hard place. This is My Soapbox regarding this whole issue. We need to rethink the attitude with which we approach our horses. We need to consider them willing partners, and not label them as lazy. We need to turn away from training techniques that rely on intimidation, and focus on inviting and allowing the horse to give us what he can. Sure, I wish you could make jumping or even just riding completely safe, but it cannot be done. It is an assumed risk, and maybe we all need a little risk in our lives just be remember that we ARE alive. My complaint with the use of a metal pole is that it seeks to make the horse ‘try harder’ from fear. Fear of noise or fear of pain is only slightly different. But I will say, that if it is just that the ‘pinging’ noise startles them, well, wouldn’t the horses get used to it pretty quick? So if it is just noise, then it doesn’t seem like it would be effective for very long. I can only surprize my horses a few times. When they realize that the noise or whatever isn’t dangerous, they lose interest. If you don’t agree, go take your horse’s photograph and try to get him to perk his ears. How many times does each little sound or movement work before you have to dream up something else to get him to look interested? But PAIN? well, they never seem to get completely over that, although I have seen horse work through some incredible pain in an attempt to cooperate, so I guess they can even learn to accept pain, it they think that is what we want. We need to honor these wonderful animal, not try to make them more submissive. If a horse isn’t doing what you want, he is in pain, in fear of pain or confused. Get those things out of his way, and he will amaze you with his willingness. m

[Ighthm]

Perhaps I could feel a bit sorrier for G M and the horse owner if they had also not been jumpng triple bars BACKWARDS in the same lesson, or had waited 'til the poor dead horse’s body was removed from the ring before continuing the lesson.
Iron pipes are a barbarian’s schooling aid and do not belong in any schooling area.
Having a horse impaled is digusting and warrants more than an " I’m Sorry " .
I hope the AHSA and the USET will carefully look into this, and hopefully no other horse will die this way.

[Richard_D]

I think this post was one of the reasons i reggied a year ago… wow…

[N_B_T]

Yes, Erin, thank you.

[Carrot3]

I would like to take back any harsh words i have used towards GM because it sounds to me that it REALLY was purely accident…1 in a million chance thing.

Thanx Erin

[Banks]

YEAH WOODBERN!!!
I agree that this in no way changed my view on this subject, although I never stated it to begin with. I think that we should all be thankfull to Erin and Ms. Jaffer, but please do not shame others because of what they thought at the time. Hearing the way we did, or the way I did, others upset at this accident were just venting their feelings.-or so I think-what they said isnt wrong, may be they shouldn’t have said what they did but is it really your responsibility to point it out? I am sorry that I am being rude, but i don’t think that we can even say that this article , for some proved that GM was inocent.
Just rambling thoughts, i’ll probably delete it!
Have a nice thursday!

[Snowbird]

CCOLLMAN Quoted
"GAYLE WROTE: “I am glad to see that the facts of the case have been made public. Personally, all of the rhetoric and character assasination accomplished nothing.” She further wrote: “Just as shocking: the people who started the original posts on the whole incident calling for George Morris to be drawn and quartered (or worse!) have disappeared and not been as gracious and human to apologize for jumping to conclusions before the facts were known, AND tearing
down anyone who dared to disagree with them.”

Gayle, I couldn’t agree with you more. Bravo!

Does that not make you guilty of being the very kind of participant which you said you wanted to avoid by staying on the NHJC BB.

I think these are both very inflamatory statements and an effort to turn the “crowd” in your direction by creating an atmosphere of fear and very demeaning to the good intentions of the posters, even if poorly expressed. But, then that is only my opinion.

Here we are very grateful to Erin, because she understands the difference between a censor and a moderator.

[Foxey]

Although in the past week, I was too sickened by this incident to post, I must throw in a few words now. What I read in this article was a lot of GM excuses, not apologys or lesosns learned.
Also, if a pole is as light as claimed, wouldn’t it bend or break rather than impaling a horse?
I would NEVER make a horse of mine jump something that could result in this. Experienced clinicians have a responsiblity to prevent accidents, not make excuses for them.

[heelsdown]

Hi Portia,

I’ve been thinking about this too. IF the motivation for using a light metal pole was to merely trigger a noise if the horse hit it then the same ends would be met by placing some good old jingle bells on a regular jump pole. I fear that THEY want the horse to feel the metal as it hits the horse’s legs. As far as capping these metal poles with a tennis ball I doubt that would do anything. Has anyone contacted an FEI official and asked for an explanation about why metal poles are not only disallowed at shows and schooling areas but at home barns as well?

[Snowbird]

Very well said Monica,
I think you have emphasized the difference between old fashioned ideas of training the horse and a contemporary view.

Was this not the very issue raised by the furor about the “Horse Whisperer” and the milder logical approach to communication versus the hard and rough strategy.

I agree that there are techiniques which utilize the basic elements and language of the horse to accomplish our purposes, such as the escape mechanism and their sense of personal space as well as the kind of language which they use and understand.

The simple fact is that horses and people all have limitations. There are some who are comfortable and sure at 3’0" but simply do not have the intellectual or perhaps physical conformation for the 3’6" fences. And, of course there are many who will not be happy with fences over 4’0".

We should be able to tolerate these differences and rather than squeezing that extra 2" out of the horse accept what they can do joyfully.

Herein, is one of the basic differences in attitude that I have viewed between Dressage and Hunters. The way I was taught the fundamental concept of Dressage was to get a horse to do under saddle what it would do from pure joy when not under saddle. All the movements are things we see when the horses are out in the field playing with pleasure and full of glee.

We in Hunters seem to feel that once we have made the calculation, as a trainer, that a particular horse is capable of performing at a certain level we are also then compelled to make it so!

I think that all the chemical and physical alterations made on the horse and to the horse would be eliminated if the trainers did not feel they needed to justify their opinions. Perhaps, one solution is to take it back a step and somehow change the attitude that the trainer cannot be wrong and that the horse is really only superb at 3’3". Many of the horses could be sold, yes perhaps at a loss, but they could find an owner who would be satisfied with the limitation and care for the horse gently.

[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 02-07-2000).]

[Monica_S]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ighthm:
Perhaps I could feel a bit sorrier for G M and the horse owner if they had also not been jumpng triple bars BACKWARDS in the same lesson, or had waited 'til the poor dead horse’s body was removed from the ring before continuing the lesson.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ighthm - were you there??? I have heard that this was the case (continued the lesson with the horse in the ring) but the CoH article indicated that they ‘resumed lessons later that day’. I just want to hear from an eye witness that what you say if fact. It probably doesn’t make a difference, but it says something about the people involved. And with that information verified as fact, we could maybe get a few people to wake up to the reality of how far wrong many of our top trainers have gone. I would really like to know if you were there, or if you are reacting to 2nd hand information. Thanks, m

[lauriep]

The use of a metal bar resting on top of a jump is probably the most safe, inane method of “reminding” a horse to be a bit more careful. I don’t know of a trainer who hasn’t used this, or a similar method, on both hunters and jumpers. Horses who have jumped a lot of jumps, or don’t always fold up as neatly as they should, sometimes need reminding. The alternative methods are much worse, and some dangerous. Burying a horse to an offset on which the standards are rammed so tight that you can’t dislodge the rail with your hands, tacks, nails, “bamboo” that really isn’t, no ground rails - all of these (and there are more) are dangerous and/or painful in the extreme. But all are used regularly. Doesn’t make it right, it just “is.” I wasn’t at this clinic, but have observed George at other clinics and hundreds of times in the schooling area. He is as careful as anyone else. I have seen him show the correct way to use these methods so that safety is maximized. Perhaps we should see if he makes any adjustments to this method in light of what happened.

And to those purists who think these methods will go away - as long as there is $$, and lots of it, to be made on these horses and in the GPs, it will always go on. And please don’t kid yourself that the Europeans, who do have the FEI rules in place, don’t use the same methods and more.

Again, not excusing, but being realistic. And I’ve been around the best in the world.

Laurie

[jch]

I would like to add my thank you.

[Gayle]

I am glad to see that the facts of the case have been made public. Personally, all of the rhetoric and character assasination accomplished nothing. The best thing that could possibly come out of this is that the AHSA finally joins the FEI in completely banning poling.
Cindy: If you read Nancy Jaffer’s article I think there is a quote from Leslie Howard who backs up that training method as something that she has done for years as well. No that it makes it right.
Just as shocking: the people who started the original posts on the whole incident calling for George Morris to be drawn and quartered (or worse!) have disappeared and not been as gracious and human to apologize for jumping to conclusions before the facts were known, AND tearing down anyone who dared to disagree with them. If the owner/rider of the horse can forgive him for the accident who is anyone else to sit in judgement?

[system]

I think that no matter what happened it is still not a good situation. Whatever happened could probably have been prevented someway or another. This whole ordeal makes me sad. I have always looked up to GM and now i really dont know what to think. It creeps me out that they continued to jump the fence and the girl came back the next day. My horse went lame (partially my fault)and i felt absolutely dreadful about it. I know that riding is a very dangerous sport which is why there are so many rules to protect both the horse and rider. I am trying not to form opinions untill more info has gotten out. I hope that at least everyone can learn from this “freak accident” so we can prevent this from happening to another horse. I am just so sorry this had to happen it is truly horrible