Chronicle's report on Morris accident

[Brue]

LucianCephus, I for one am so tired of your posts blasting everyone who disagrees with your hatred of George. Obviously, since you jump fully into any dialog that discusses him, you have some very personal issues with him. I wonder what he has done to you that makes you so bitter toward him. I highly doubt that you have ever even met the man.

And I would be cautious making such statements against the poor owner of the deceased horse. Are you now accusing her of not caring about her horse because you believe that she will be compensated by her insurance? You come across as a bitter and cold person.

[Policy_of_Truth]

I’ve tried to be as reasonably unbiased as possible, but my initial reaction to this incident still prevails. I already had a bad taste in my mouth regarding another “George” incident, and this new one has done nothing but to increase my wariness of him as a person and as a horseman. And I know a lot of you will bash me for this, but as far as I know, we still have First Amendment Rights, and I intend to use them.
There is no excuse for the terrible and extreme measures people in the horseworld are taking in order to win. I do not see any person who is so obsessed with winning as a true horseman/woman. The true horseman/woman is first and foremost concerned with the horse’s safety, health and well-being…and don’t try and say that a horse’s well being might be helping him/her jump higher…if you want a horse to jump higher, buy one that wants to and CAN!
George might believe what he did was ok, but there are some of us that see what he did as a rutheless climb to the top.

[CCollman]

Well said Marianne …

[Bascule]

We all need to open our eyes and be aware. So many people don’t know that dangerous and cruel tactics are being used. We also need to realize that most of the people who need to hear what we are saying will never come to this board. We need to stand up and be counted. Tell people. Especially new people to the sport. Spread the word, so they will know cruelty when they see it. So many get caught up in the so-called glamour of a trainer and do things they shouldn’t. The only way it will ever end is if we make ourselves heard and don’t send business to the ones doing the damage. I rode very temporarily with a trainer who used very similar “training” methods. Once I got wise, I left. Not a week goes by when I don’t share my negative experience with a fellow rider or horseperson. Word of mouth is the best atonement.

[MBS]

Where did this one come from? It was NEVER said that anyone was jumping any thing Backwards. Were You there??? Because according to the people that I talked to that were there that was NOT the case.

[Cactuskate]

Although I have not read each and every post, the theme to me is that our hunt and jump activity is always dangerous. And accidents do happen, freaky or not.

I recall witnessing an accident at a show in the NW some 17 years ago. It was during an AO class in a very safe indoor arena, with an experienced rider. However her horse came to the first fence on a diagonal line, a coop with a rail over I believe, and he HUNG a leg big time. He flipped over the fence landed on her, and 2 hours later the EMT’s had her out of the arena in the ambulance. To the best of my knowledge she was paralyzed, wheelchair bound for the rest of her life.

Not to be morbid, but my point is there are unsafe horses going around in many arenas, and unfortunately in the more novice divisions. We still watch these things go on week after week, and no one speaks out because it is the “norm”.

A highly visible figure has a freaky accident and there are people that want him held totally accountable. Stop and look around at all the “accidents waiting to happen” at your own facility or show venue. Do something to prevent those before you chastise someone else.

There is an inherent danger in all horse activities, I try not to let my risk level exceed my ability.

[LazyA]

Good report. George Morris has given his life to the sport. Its a matter of statistics – the more you are involved and the longer, the more likely that a mistake is going to happen.

I am an attorney and have been for about 20 years. I am a good attorney and I love my work. I recently missed an important deadline. One of those “there but for the grace of God go I” mistakes. My client and my boss were both gracious and sympathic.

I suppose an argument can be made that a metal pole is not conventional equipment. There is probably somewhere to point a finger after any accident. There are some accidents that fall into a per se category, and others that are “freak accidents”, and others that are somewhere in between. But legal liability is a matter for the horse’s owner, who has obviously forgiven Mr. Morris. For the rest of us, Mr. Morris simply made a mistake in assessing the risk of an accident. How often we do the same thing, but just get lucky.

[marianne]

Thanks Erin for the information. To all the others who sat in judgement-shame on you. GM at least is taking responsibility for the incident. Will those of you who said such nasty diatribes and screeds against him have such responsibility and accountability to your remarks or will you hide behind your aliases?

[Flash44]

I would not call the incident an accident at all. I would call it a statistical PROBABILITY, since the trainer has been using a light metal pole on a seemingly regular basis for a long time. You may try something risky once, or twice, or a hundred times, but eventually the odds catch up with you and the “freak” thing happens.

How many people here have NEVER fallen off, been bit, kicked, stepped on or otherwise injured by a horse? I’m betting none. And you will all probably admit that if you ride and work around horses long enough, some or all of the above will happen to you. So you learn and utilize techniques to keep you and your horses safe, because even when you do every thing you could possibly think of to prevent harm, the horse will undoubtedly think of an unexpected way to act. And when the unexpected happens, you better hope you did all you could to keep the unexpected from becoming tragic.

[Erin]

Oh for crying out loud, are we going to go through this again?

Snowbird, ENOUGH with the NHJC comparisons. Drop it.

Can we all just let the GM thing rest and talk about the bigger picture? What happened happened… I think the more important question is what should happen next.

[Pat]

Thanks you Monica, I was beginning to think I was the only one 'round here that felt the same way. Just because “everyone” uses that metal pole doesn’t make it right or safe. It was one of many accidents waiting to happen.

One can only wonder if this had happened at a less public place if it would be getting this kind of attention. Particulary if it was in a less or unknown trainers barn. Would anyone have even been told if there was no one to see it? Probably not. Perhaps that is the only bright side, that now it is clear that the use of the metal pole poses a potential to do harm. Totally not worth it in my opinion. What if that trusting rider had been injured or killed as well? Would it still be a"freak accident. I doubt it, and then there would be more than the AHSA looking in to it, no matter who the trainer is.

[system]

Marianne, you are obviously entitled to your opinions. I can’t imagine anyone would object to your expressing them. You’ve made many thoughtful contributions to these forums. I hate to sound like Tipper Gore, but I do wish you’d reconsider the language you used to express your thoughts in your last post! This is a board for people of all ages, ranging from the under ten set on up. Please don’t take offense- it is not my intent to attack you or anything of the sort. I enjoy hearing from the kids here as well as the adults, and I imagine we might lose a few if their moms or dads find profanity here.

I’m getting off my soapbox now…

[salsalito]

Monica, that was great. It reminds me of a quote that is hanging up in my barn of which I remind myself of everyday.
" The definiton of a horseman has always signified to me, a partnership between man and horse-not a mere mastery of one by the other"–M.S.Littauer
I agree, we should not think of us, the riders, as “masters” of the horse, but as a partner to our horses. Agreed, their does need to be a certain respect of the horse to rider, the same way as we need to respect our horses. We cannot bully them into things, but ASK them to do what we want. All in all, horses are very tolerable of human nature, and all too willing to please. If we train them well and treat them as much as equals as possible, they will be better creatures.

[system]

Here’s an easy way to show your disapproval of George Morris’ technique… don’t send your horses to his clinics.

I’ve got an Oldenburg gelding at my trainer’s barn. She’s spoken with Mr. Morris several times and, she tells me, she might begin training with him. And she wanted to use my gelding.

I have informed her that she may not. Continuing to use a training method that has proven lethal, regardless of how unlikely the accident, is several I.Q. points below ‘moronic’.

I’m willing to be forgiving enough to believe that Mr. Morris had absolutely no idea a horse could impale itself on a metal pole. Even though I knew it, and I’m not a world-class trainer. Be that as it may… I’m not forgiving enough to comprehend why he continues to use this method. Is his imagination and training insufficient to come up with another solution for how to make horses respect the jump? Does he only know one method, and if that method proves unreliable then he’s confounded?

Either the man’s an idiot, or he’s hidebound. Either way, my horse will not be subject to him.

Jessa

[Checkers324]

Just putting my .02 in.

I really don’t like the idea of using anything that is potentially harmful. Using the metal pole might have been all-right had the ends been capped. The same accident could have happened with the PCV rails that so many people use for normal jumping. The ends are uncapped and the plastic could easily impale the horse. But in a way, PCV might be more dangerous because it appears that it could crack easily, and the cracked plastic could tear the horse right up.

I think the safest method, if you want the “pinging” sound of the metal to remind the horse to jump more carefully, would be to slip a few feet of metal pole over a regular wooden pole. Why not?? That way, you won’t have to worry about the end of a metal pole spearing the horse, but you’ll still have metal there to create the desirable sound. And since the metal is on a wood pole, it will just fall straight down and not bounce. I know, this idea has never been tried out, but it could catch on, don’t you think…?

My main concern is always for the horse’s welfare. I don’t care if I had intentions to make it to the 3±footers at HITS, if all methods had been tried and failed and the only one left was one that had the potential to injure or kill the horse, I wouldn’t use it. Hey, it’s not a life-or-death thing to hang around at the pony hunters for as long as he lives.

Checkers324
Ride the wind, and be at one with your horse!

[Banks]

Just wanted to add my thanks!

[This message has been edited by Banks (edited 02-03-2000).]

[system]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Carrot3:
[B]I would like to take back any harsh words i have used towards GM because it sounds to me that it REALLY was purely accident…1 in a million chance thing.

Thanx Erin[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I couldn’t have said it any better than Carrot. I let my emotions get the best of me, before learning the facts. I humbley apologize for harsh comments I may have made. I have no alias to hide behind, and accept full responsibility for all of my ignorant remarks.

      a thoroughly shamed Alexandra 

[This message has been edited by Alexandra (edited 02-03-2000).]

[poltroon]

Morris’ setup as described pretty much everywhere does not constitute ‘poling’ by the traditional definition.

It is true that the use of a metal pole is prohibited for schooling at an AHSA show - but then, it’s also prohibited to school a dressage horse in draw reins at a show, or to school with two dressage whips. The reasons for prohibiting a practice in the schooling area don’t necessarily mean that a practice is cruel, harsh, or stupid.

Yes, you can use a difficult gymnastic to school a horse instead of a metal pole. But truthfully, how is it different? I realize it’s a heretical thought, but a bad gymnastic can be as cruel, dangerous, and hurtful as improper poling, let alone the use of a nonstandard, stationary pole. I must say I am persuaded that a loud, strange noise is probably more effective and safer for the horse than a bruise.

I’ve never worked with anyone who uses poling, nor do I desire to. But I think too many people are responding on a knee-jerk level (because “daddy (or other figure) did it that way”) rather than think out the ideas and concepts for themselves to evaluate the technique and what it really teaches.

(And thanks, Erin, for posting the article.)

[farmgate]

Erin, A-men! Thank you!

[Beans]

I agree that the reporting is somewhat santitized and I’m quite frankly insulted as an AHSA member that we are now going to a system where the number of write-in’s triggers an official investigation. Not what I thought my dues were paying for with the AHSA - but then the entire organization needs a complete overhaul - just a removal of oversized egos would provide some relief, shaving the fat at the top and putting that money into better reporting systems and record keeping. After all it’s supposed to support the MEMBERSHIP. I’m off on another thread - sorry.

With respect to GM’s comments…well what you learn from a tragic experience is a true measure of the person. I personally believe poling should be banned - PERIOD. As for those who don’t use it in the restricted venues…but use it “at home” or off site…well for me it speaks to their character. A metal pole without capped ends in any jumping situation is truly pushing the envelope and heading into that higher “probability” realm for accidents. In this instance it CLEARLY contributed to a horses death. If any of the people involved in this either as trainer, rider, horse owner, audience or reader of posts anywhere elects to use this method again…well I find that just plain negligent. You know what CAN happen and you’ve decided to play the percentages anyway and put not only a rider at risk but an animal that had no ability to say yes or no.

Let’s put more emphasis on being good horseman, male or female. Yes some schooling is required to move horses up the ranks…but throwing a child into the deep end of the pool might make some swim but it will probably leave more of them with a life long fear of water.

It’s an option of a trainer to use humiliation and intimidation as a technique. There may be some instances where it works, but it does leave many more of the people involved with a very negative experience. It’s unsettling to see someone else humiliated and some people involved repress real fear and place themselves or their horses in danger for fear of admitting their limits.

A final note…getting back on a horse after you’ve had a bad experience is something I believe in. When I broke my back in a bad fall I did just that against the recommendations of my doctor. But in the same location where one of my horses died - sorry I just couldn’t go that far - perhaps it’s an individual thing.