"classic' traditional trianing, versus 'modern training

[KIloBright]

This subject comes up often, so I thought I would add my thoughts on it
Yes, the old Masters have much to offer, be it dressage or old Vaquero training, BUT, I differ when it comes to those old Masters always touted as the supreme example of Horsemanship , and their methods taken as the "Bible’ of horse training
Sometimes traditional is just that-tradition, without anyone ever questioning methodology or maybe considering that there might be even better ways_ie advancement versus stagnation
Yes, the Old Vaquero way took the time to produce a bridle horse, one ridden in a Spade bit with great finesse
However, it is not true that Old Vaquero traditional training was always kind, and soft, and in fact, many times quite harsh
Here is a link to Shiela Varian and her thoughts on training a bridle horse today, versus in those by gone days
Check out how doubling was done in those days
Read Ed Cornell’s book on Hackamore Horsemanship, and you will see some pretty harsh techniques were used to produce that Bridle horse
Yes, esp western, we rush that training program , esp on show horses, having three year olds, for example, up in the bridle running reining patterns and all the elements that entail, BUT, to always suggest that in the good ole days horse training was kinder, more exact, and the ultimate example, in my books, doe snot hold up at all times.
Tying a horse between two pillars, using a whip to teach him to trot in place (dressage ), again is 'un natural, every bit as show ring western pleasure gaits. Ever see a horse in the field reve , like a car being gased while in park???
Airs above ground might have application in war, but now, unless you want your horse to kick in your neighbor’s head, not much use
True horse training really evolved when the nature of the horse was taken into account, communicating with the horse versus forcing the horse. I.m not going to call it 'natural Horsemanship, as good horse training programs always combined some good natural horsemanship in their methods , before a label was ever applied.

http://www.horsechannel.com/western-horse-training/vaquero-way-17722.aspx

[Beverley]

Well, on the one hand, there is something new to learn every day with horses, even if it is how ‘not’ to do something. And ‘we’ve always done it this way’ doesn’t hold a lot of water with me, except to the extent that if something isn’t broke, it doesn’t need fixing.

On the other hand, I go back and read Xenophon and think to myself well yeah, he had it right, so it becomes a question of whether principles are misapplied or forgotten over time.

I do sometimes have discussions with newer-to-riding folks for whom ‘natural horsemanship’ is the be all and end all, who won’t listen when you explain that no, a particular current trainer did ‘not’ think that whatever up, it’s been around a while. One is humorously accused of being close-minded when in fact it’s the other party whose beliefs are set in stone, because, well, they saw the dvd, or went to the clinic, and it can be no other way. Anybody who has been working with horses for decades is automatically bad, old school, doing it wrong, can’t possibly be willing to learn new tricks.

As a recent example, someone who thinks bits are just universally evil and abusive showed a clip of someone riding with just a lead rope around its neck and doing very well. I observed that I used to amuse myself doing reining patterns bareback on my mare in the 60s with just a lead rope around the neck, it’s nothing new, but this individual is skeptical, no, I’m lying, everything that has gone before ‘now’ was wrong, unenlightened, abusive, you name it, only ‘natural horsemanship’ is the answer.

Heck, I look at Road to the Horse and similar fashionable events these days, and this idea of ‘instant results’ is to me no different than snubbing a horse to a post and saddling up and riding it out- from the horse’s point of view the level of stress is often enough the same under either approach. And I look at the tv trainers and am just appalled at how they just work the snot out of young horses.

So on that basis I wouldn’t hold up teaching a horse in the pillars as automatically unkind or abusive, any more than the so-called ‘natural’ theories are automatically kind.

I guess my point is that ‘any’ method we care to name can be good, or bad, depending on the user. Horses are really cool and forgiving creatures, and you can teach 'em anything, if you are able to make it clear what you want them to do, and allow them the time to process the information.

[Doctracy]

I’m currently retraining my “Parelli” trained pony. She really has no clue when it comes to lunging. Not about to get on her until she’s able to lunge at a walk,trot and canter without a round pen and stick/plastic bag.

[KIloBright]

Very good points Bev, that I agree with completely!
I remember teaching a green horse clinic at a local light horse club.
There was a father there, on ahorse intended to be a youth horse for one of his kids, and that had gone through a Parelli course.
He was riding that horse in a halter, and the horse was pretty much going where he wanted to, resistant, head in the air, and a danger to the other young horses there.
I had to tell him to leave
I also agree that those colt starting clinics are entertainment value to the audience, but have little benefit for the horse itself
In fact, people like Stacey Westfall and Chris Cox make sure to point out that the methods and rushed time frame , used in those colt starting demos, are not what their program at home is like
Many people have watched Stacy’s tackless free style reining video, and conclude that all what they see is made possible by never havinga horse learn to be responsive to abit.
That is completely incorrect, of course. Those brideless demos are possible because that horse is very soft in the body, and soft in the face, because they first were taught that through riding with a bit and correct use of legs
Stacey explained at one demo, how she has her reiners learn to stop on all three common cues used for the stop, using just one by itself
Thus, the horse stops on voice alone, seat and body alone and reins alone.
In a regular reining class, she then has three stopping cues that she can use in conjunction with each other
Thus, when she drops that bridle, she still has two cues left
Totally agree that ‘NH’ training just has coined an element that was always part of any good training program, just not labelled as such.
I could start another whole subject on NH, and ‘traditional’ training, and the marketing that goes along with NH, but that is, as they say, another story!

[KIloBright]

[QUOTE=Doctracy;7924383]
I’m currently retraining my “Parelli” trained pony. She really has no clue when it comes to lunging. Not about to get on her until she’s able to lunge at a walk,trot and canter without a round pen and stick/plastic bag.[/QUOTE]

I guess I was not clear enough. I am certainly not comparing traditional training with NH.

My point was merely not always assuming that the Old Masters, going way back to European history, and that of the Vaqueros in California is the ultimate in all aspects of horsemanship, and that perhaps ‘we’ have progressed somewhat in our approach to training horses , same as in other things, like medicine, etc
I have not really studied Classical horsemanship , as it pertains to The Spanish riding school, but have read enough of Vaquero methods of producing a Bridle horse to know that many working cowhorse programs today, also getting a horse up in a spade, have often a more gentler approach
There is no dispute that the finished horses produced in old California, based on the influence of the conquistadors , produced a horse that was very light and responsive
At the same time, that history was steeped in using horses for warfare, and that demanded a horse with immediate and un questionable obedience to very light bit signal. Thus, the end result at times, was more important than the means
Even today, a serreta is used in bull fighting. It is a metal serrated noseband, sometimes covered with leather, but sometimes not, giving the instant obedience required in that dangerous sport
When I read Ed Cornell’s book on Hackamore horsemanship, I appreciated the time used to develop a bridle horse ,and the time that the horse spends in the bridle, bosal combo, before being ridden totally off of the Spade bit, BUT, I also see where that training involved heavier hands in that bosal or snaffle period, than is generally used today in a GOOD training program
Doubling would be one good example, used in the way Ed C. describes
My point is that many modern traditional programs produce horses more relaxed and softer in the face, as just seeing an old time reining stop, compared to that of a good reiner today, is a prime example
Even the dry part of a working cowhorse event, shows that cowhorse running that pattern with way more finesse. At one time a hard stop from speed, even with head in the air, front end braced, was a winning stop, as was a fast spin, even if the horse did not cross over correctly, but hopped around some
Far as NH, it is a marketing tool, attracting many people new to horses, with the idea that one can train a horse with a ‘cookie cutter approach, ’ aided by the many spin off products , like carrot sticks, endo tapping and a host of other things
Many of those followers do endless round penning, play games, get the first part or the statement by Tom Dorance, but totally miss the equally important second part:
Be as gentle with a horse as possible, BUT, also as firm as needed, to make that horse a good citizen’!
Yes, we can learn a lot from the past, when horsemanship was a requirement of daily life, and those horses were used in war, but at the same time, as in all things, one must keep an open mind, that just mAybe some new approach has merit
Just look at some of the old military jumping pictures, with the rider sitting way back behind the action of the horse, versus the position used by International show jumpers today. Sometimes Tradition needs to be challenged, not just blindly adhered to

[Beverley]

I knew a mounted bullfighter in Mexico some decades back who did not use a serrata, so please let’s don’t generalize when all we know is what we read. I did ride under a Cadre Noir trained instructor in France. That military based training, classically based, was absolutely consistent with what Buck Brannaman teaches. Think about it. If your life depends in large part on your horse’s instant cooperation in battle, you need a far higher level of mutual trust than the average western pleasure competitor, as a random example.

[Bluey]

It is nothing wrong with a serreta, is used covered with a cloth, is less harsh than a big, stiff rawhide bosal banging around on a horse’s nose.
There are several kinds of those, many are three hinged plates with rings welded to them, others are like half a hackamore shape and those are the ones with the tiny points, that are covered so you can’t feel them at all.

Serretas were used for many farm mules, without a bit and they have a very soft nose and there were no marks on them, unlike so many ranch colts started with the bosal, that had a permanent bump from it on their noses.
Serretas are just one more tool.

Any we use on a horse’s head or mouth can be used light and properly or abused.

Here are some pictures:

http://qcvsaddlery.com/en/cavessons/10-portuguese-cavesson-sintra-111.html

A picture of a jointed one:

[mvp]

Varian make some nice points in that article.

The ones that stood out for me:

1. We are using better bred horses now, so we can/should be softer in our training methods. That makes sense to me. If you ask yourself how many horse generations of selective breeding have continued since, say, 1700, there’s a lot of them. And I think we have selected for, among other things, better conformation (better balance especially) and a better, more pliable mind.

If you look at photographs of work horses from the 1880s and 1890s (when photography first became widespread and practical), a lot of those horses look really coarse, badly built and badly fed and shod by modern standards. That’s not all of them. But those photographs make me distrust the uphill balance and build of the paintings of well-bred horses that came before them.

2. Varian emphasizes the time involved in making up a bridle horse. If you can’t stand that aspect of this type of training, it’s really not for you. Oh, and I believe that 5-7 years to make up a bridle horse is true…. if you have done this before and know what you are doing. I assume that the first horse one makes will have holes in its education and take longer. The finished bridle horse sounds like an expensive animal.

[KIloBright]

[QUOTE=Beverley;7924891]
I knew a mounted bullfighter in Mexico some decades back who did not use a serrata, so please let’s don’t generalize when all we know is what we read. I did ride under a Cadre Noir trained instructor in France. That military based training, classically based, was absolutely consistent with what Buck Brannaman teaches. Think about it. If your life depends in large part on your horse’s instant cooperation in battle, you need a far higher level of mutual trust than the average western pleasure competitor, as a random example.[/QUOTE]

True, that trust does exist, but many horses faced canon fire, ect not just because of trust always, but rather by absolute domination by the rider.
Many mustangs were caught given a rough breaking session and sent back to Europe to serve in the World wars
The charge of the light Brigade, shows horses blindly obeyed their rider, to where the natural instinct of self preservation is over ruled
Not everyone that rode or owned horses in the 'good old days, even liked horses. Horses were tools, so to romatasize that most horses were ridden into battle by kind loving horsemen is un realistic
Yes, it was fashionable for the aristocratic to excel in horsemanship in old Spain, and they brought some of those skills with them. Roping grizzly bears was a sport in old California, a feat I doubt was totally based on trust, but more on domination
It says something of a culture that held blood sports, pitting grizzly bears against bulls, far as empathy towards animals in general
Just seeing some of the pictures in old books, shows horses, ridden in Spade bits, used in this sport, mouth open. Thus while a horse ridden and trained correctly in a Spade bit shows true skill in horsemanship, the potential for abuse is also high, as it is doubtful good hands were always at the end of those reins!
There are always exceptions, so I’m sure there are mounted bull fighters that use mild equipment
Here is some info on nose bands in general, including the serreta

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/bridle.php
I am not trying to discredit great traditional training, but merely to point out that whenever a training issues comes up, using the old masters as the ultimate reference, versus some of the great modern trainers, might not always be the answer

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=KIloBright;7925889]
True, that trust does exist, but many horses faced canon fire, ect not just because of trust always, but rather by absolute domination by the rider.
Many mustangs were caught given a rough breaking session and sent back to Europe to serve in the World wars
The charge of the light Brigade, shows horses blindly obeyed their rider, to where the natural instinct of self preservation is over ruled
Not everyone that rode or owned horses in the 'good old days, even liked horses. Horses were tools, so to romatasize that most horses were ridden into battle by kind loving horsemen is un realistic
Yes, it was fashionable for the aristocratic to excel in horsemanship in old Spain, and they brought some of those skills with them. Roping grizzly bears was a sport in old California, a feat I doubt was totally based on trust, but more on domination
It says something of a culture that held blood sports, pitting grizzly bears against bulls, far as empathy towards animals in general
Just seeing some of the pictures in old books, shows horses, ridden in Spade bits, used in this sport, mouth open. Thus while a horse ridden and trained correctly in a Spade bit shows true skill in horsemanship, the potential for abuse is also high, as it is doubtful good hands were always at the end of those reins!
There are always exceptions, so I’m sure there are mounted bull fighters that use mild equipment
Here is some info on nose bands in general, including the serreta

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/bridle.php
I am not trying to discredit great traditional training, but merely to point out that whenever a training issues comes up, using the old masters as the ultimate reference, versus some of the great modern trainers, might not always be the answer[/QUOTE]

She forgot to say the serreta is never used without being covered completely with cloth, leather or sheepskin.

The power to the person on the other end of the longe line is from the welded rings, not from the metal itself.
To longe with a serreta you have to be as careful as with a bit in their mouth, very, very careful, you have much leverage on a horse.

That is why in andalusian colt starting you teach so much to give and on the ground first, until you are sure the horse is not resisting, because you don’t want to get in a fight with one and why temperament is the most important in andalusians, no bad actors permitted.
Andalusians live with people around them all the time and a rank horse just is not acceptable, no glory in taming the wild beast in that culture.

I do agree that today we do much better all around in our handling and training with our horses than ever, as we do in general in our human lives.

As the standard of living for more and more humans is raised, so is that of our animals.

One more point, while South America may have started in the old Spanish tradition when it came to horses, they went their own way and what they do with them, while similar in some ways, is not at all the same and neither is the Vaquero Tradition, that is yet another type of horsemanship all their own.

A bit like how roping evolved, the SW cowboys used to tie hard and fast and the more West you went, they dallied.

[Beverley]

@KIloBright;7925889

True, that trust does exist, but many horses faced canon fire, ect not just because of trust always, but rather by absolute domination by the rider.
Many mustangs were caught given a rough breaking session and sent back to Europe to serve in the World wars
The charge of the light Brigade, shows horses blindly obeyed their rider, to where the natural instinct of self preservation is over ruled

Oh. So you really didn’t agree with my earlier post.

I’m afraid you are hazarding opinions here that are just that, opinions, and by your own admission uninformed. If you want to give me specific references that support your opinions, I’m all ears. I don’t have any cavalry manuals handy, and neither you nor I was there to see the Charge of the Light Brigade, but let me know what in this 1926 British film clip constitutes poor horsemanship or ‘absolute domination:’

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/brilliant-horsemanship/query/Weedon

You might further want to read the story of Sgt Reckless, Marine in Korea, who served admirably with out any hint of ‘absolute domination.’

You might also want to brush up on how the U.S. Cavalry acquired its horses, it did not involve the ‘rough breaking’ of Mustangs who were then sent overseas.

Sorry, but the above snippet of yours I’ve quoted does not suggest opinions based on knowledge or even a little basic research.

No question there’s much more to know about horses than there used to be, but that doesn’t mean people bother to acquire the knowledge. Same can be said about society at large.

Using reining as an example- the increased knowledge base on the proper balance of horses on circles and such is a good thing. The faddish and unnaturally low head and neck carriage for the ‘sliding stop,’ which isn’t a functional stop at all, it’s a sit down and slide with the back end and keep dragging yourself forward with the front feet, is no better in my opinion than the stiff-necked, mouth open stop of years gone by. There are some good stops in reining today, but there were good stops in the 60s, too. I saw them.

In summary: No, I don’t think modern training is automatically any better than classic traditional training. A good horseman is a good horseman, and always has been. The assumption, as I mentioned earlier, that everything that went before now was bad, is just flat wrong, and one would need an encyclopedia to give a small fraction of the examples.

Please read Xenophon and tell me what principles he espoused on the care and training of a horse that you think are invalid today. He wrote ‘On Horsemanship’ in 350 B.C. Here you go, a link to a free read: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1176

[Bluey]

Our ranch sold horses to the military.

We were part of the remount program, where the government inspectors came by, looked at the broodmares and provided us with stallions suitable for what they wanted in color and size and temperament and conformation.

Most times those stallions were TB’s.

The inspectors would go over the already broke and used for a couple of years ranch horses we offered for sale and buy what suited them.
They told us our horses generally made officer mounts, they were some of the better ones they were finding.

For some years, they told us some of our horses went on to Iran, as officer mounts.
Not exactly half broke, rank mustangs.

Here is one of those horses we raised, out of their stallions, that they bought later, the picture was taken in the fall of 1918: