"Classical" Dressage vs. Just Dressage - please educate

[twofatponies]

[QUOTE=Trevelyan96;4126834]
I guess my general feeling is that ‘classical’ vs. ‘modern competitive’ is that the classicals DON’T use draw reins, rollkur, etc. as a shortcut to put a horse in a frame. They make sure horse and rider basics are SOLID first, and the emphasis is to bring out the ‘best’ in horse and rider at each level before moving on to the next. JMHO.[/QUOTE]

Just to clarify - when I read this I assumed what Trevelyan meant was that the classical rider does not use xyz as a SHORTCUT, but they might (or might not) use xyz sometimes, in a context where it is NOT a shortcut.

I would presume that the SRS use of sidereins in certain contexts (such as the photos I posted) is NOT a shortcut, but the right tool for a specific situation, in these cases a very high schooled horse doing in-hand work, or a very well-schooled horse doing a “beginner” lunge lesson.

[system]

We have been practicing old traditional methods as well as more modern dressage practices together for years at White Horse Vale Lipizzans. But because of the nature of recent events there in association with a self proclaimed “Classical” trainer, and the whole nauseating classical/competitive debate, we have decided to drop the “C” word from our daily conversations as well as advertising… We just try to ride, drive, and train with the most effective and humane horsemanship and equitation as we can, and try to walk the walk.
I will forever be suspicious of anyone who says they are “classical”, when they are just trying to sell something. The classical masters are legends and gave us much… but beware of anyone who advertises themselves as ‘one of them’. They could be charlatans. They remind me of crazy TV evangelists or cult leaders with messianic complexes. Scary stuff.

[Ajierene]

[QUOTE=twofatponies;4127707]
Just to clarify - when I read this I assumed what Trevelyan meant was that the classical rider does not use xyz as a SHORTCUT, but they might (or might not) use xyz sometimes, in a context where it is NOT a shortcut.

I would presume that the SRS use of sidereins in certain contexts (such as the photos I posted) is NOT a shortcut, but the right tool for a specific situation, in these cases a very high schooled horse doing in-hand work, or a very well-schooled horse doing a “beginner” lunge lesson. :D[/QUOTE]

The Spanish riding school uses side reins for three different reasons. They are first put on a young horse, loosely (the kind of ‘loose’ that Trevelyan96 describes) while the horse is being lunged, prior to first starting under saddle. This is about a three week period and is done to help the horse learn balance.

They are used on well schooled horses when learning the high school movements and are used to act as reins where the horse is riderless, between the pillars, etc.

They are used on well schooled horses when they are on the lunge line with a ‘beginner’ rider. Here, again, they act as reins, in that there is constant contact so that the rider does not have to worry about that as well as learning how to have an independent seat.

Where the Spanish Riding School differs with others that use side reins is that some other people use them all the time when lunging, either to tight for the horse’s place in progression or to often, or just wrong. As an example, the Spanish Riding School does not use sidereins on a Training level, First level, Second level horse - some other people do. They see side reins on a Lippizaner and say ‘gee if they do it, it is fine’, not realizing that there are specific instances where the side reins are used, it is not an ‘all the time’ thing.

[Dressage_Art]

[QUOTE=LongReinLipizzans;4133103]
We have been practicing old traditional methods as well as more modern dressage practices together for years at White Horse Vale Lipizzans. But because of the nature of recent events there in association with a self proclaimed “Classical” trainer, and the whole nauseating classical/competitive debate, we have decided to drop the “C” word from our daily conversations as well as advertising… We just try to ride, drive, and train with the most effective and humane horsemanship and equitation as we can, and try to walk the walk.
I will forever be suspicious of anyone who says they are “classical”, when they are just trying to sell something. The classical masters are legends and gave us much… but beware of anyone who advertises themselves as ‘one of them’. They could be charlatans. They remind me of crazy TV evangelists or cult leaders with messianic complexes. Scary stuff.[/QUOTE]
And to quote Arthur Kottas about who is classical and who is not: ”there are good riders and there are bad riders. Unfortunately there are more bad ones than good ones”

Yes, there are charlatans who produce one photo of themselves piaffing on a white horse, tell stories how they took a dozen lessons with ODGs, repeatedly spit out clichés like “it’s all in the hind end” “quiet hands” “invisible aids” “harmony between horse and rider”… and claim themselves “classical masters”… yes, some of them use a coup out that they don’t want to show and that’s the reason why they do not have any respectful scores and such…It is a known joke of what should untalented dressage trainer do? -> Take a photo with a white horse and call themselves “classical” Then this trainer never have to produce any results.

It’s also quite difficult to find a complete classical package: There are those who mastered P&P training and can produce amazing results, but lack in everything else. Just like some modern trainers excel in medium trots and lack in everything else.

But, I beg you, please don’t put those charlatans in the same line as the true classical masters who repeatedly trained many horses & riders to Haute Ecole and who were known leaders of their national classical schools of dressage!

and at the end,… good horseman is good horseman in any country in any arena.

PS: lets not forget that classical trainers/students also can fiercely disagree with each other about what “classical” really is as well.

[Equibrit]

http://www.classicaldressage.co.uk/html/what_is_classical_.html
“Classical Riding is correct riding”. It is how we really should ride every time we get on a horse. It is Horsemanship - not just knowing how to ride, but all round knowledge of the horse as a species - its psychology and physiology.

[cu.at.x]

[QUOTE=siegi b.;4126497]
sometimes you have to be inventive and maybe not exactly traditional in your methods. As long as these methods don’t cause lasting mental or phsycial anguish in the horse and produce results, who are we to say that they’re wrong because they’re not listed under the “classical” category?[/QUOTE]

Even a moment of mental or physical anguish is wrong and unnecessary.