Classical dressage vs modern

[laureah21]

Hi everyone,
Newbie here. I have not ridden competitively in about 15 years and was an eventer before that for about 16 years. Im looking to get back into it allI, but only dressage this time. I saw a clip recently on youtube of the spanish riding school, which I thought was beautiful and will post below. I was curious about why dressage is so different now, there is none of those high school, airs above ground moves (which I understand is not something that was ever put in competitions). Is it because they are very hard.? Are these beautiful stallions not something that would do well in the ring and why, what are there faults and attributes?? Thanks for comments, advice and opinions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSA0BPfKkFY&index=2&list=RD5woNlOl2h8A

[Scribbler]

Dressage as competition developed over the 20th century, as did all horseback competition except racing. Before that dressage just meant training. The airs above the ground are stylizations of old cavlary moves from the baroque era. You are right, they did not enter the competition framework. I don’t know the exact history of why but can think of some good reasons.

If you are interested I am sure there are histories of the SRS and European riding pre 20th century that will give you some background

Show jumping and eventing didn’t exist prior to the 20th century either. People went fox hunting for to jump. Eventing grew out of cavalry competitions. All the competive forms we know are modern inventions, except racing.

[merrygoround]

Keep in mind that the airs above the ground performed at the SRS are the culmination of many years of training. Also kepi in mind that there are specialists. Horses, who because of temperament and physical capabilities perform some of the higher movements more easily than others. Not every horse at the SRS is trained to those levels, only those with a special aptitude.

Most of those movements, in one form or another were expected of a charger in the days when knights wore armor. The horses themselves were a weapon.

[MysticOakRanch]

@merrygoround

Also kepi in mind that there are specialists.

Yes, this is a big part of it. A horse that performs the capriole may ONLY do that - he doesn’t do the levade, the courbette, etc. A competition horse is expected to do the whole range of movements in the GP test - to be a bit of a “generalist”.

If you watched the Spanish Riding School exhibition, you did see many of the modern competition movements too - the piaffe, the passage, the half pass, the tempi changes are all demonstrated. But when you get to the ultimate “haute ecole”, a horse specializes in one or two specific movements, and that is it. And much of the time, those are shown with the handler on the ground.

[netg]

Many of the movements in that video are quite lovely and could do well in competition, too. The current trend is for a longer, leggier type of horse who is less likely to be able to do the airs, but who looks more flashy as it moves. Well done dressage, however, will have many similarities in the training which happens. Naturally, someone focused on competition will focus on what will help them score higher, and that may be different than what they would focus on if doing demonstrations. For example, larger extensions are good in competition - but in an exhibition, you need to match the horse with the smallest gaits.

[lorilu]

Competitive dressage grew out of the military training of horses - not the “baroque or classical” style of horse but the leggier (dare I say eventng/all around?) type. In fact early dressage tests included a jump ( I recall reading that somewhere). Additionally, the FEI is based in the warmblood type of horse and the German style of training (although if you go far enough back, the OLDEST old masters had much in common). Note that the most successful horses are warmbloods, and the baroques are only now being appreciated in the dressage arena - as they have been bred to have longer more “warmbloody” gaits.
I am sure some will dispute all I have written. Just my take on it.

[J-Lu]

What everyone else said.

The baroque horses such as the ones in your video are bred for collected movements, and you’ll note that they don’t excel much at the other end of the scale (extensions). That’s fine. They are superlative at collected movements and airs above the ground. This requires very specialized training and most non-specialized riders/trainers can’t teach this. Most horses (even specially bred baroque horses) can’t perform these movements superlatively. The cream rises to the top.

Current competitive horses are expected to collect and extend, and that often requires a horse bred for range. This can be hit or miss, as you’ll note the number of horses (even warmbloods) that make it to GP is rather small (similar stats as stallions that make it to the Lipizzaner show). That said, there are many baroque horses who represent countries in the Olympics and do quite well. One of my faves was a horse named Invasor who went for Spain. Baroque horses do quite well in dressage and many people compete on them. The training from the Spanish school has had a very large impact on competitive dressage, as several top modern dressage riders worked closely with former Spanish school trainers.

[Scribbler]

It’s also important to distinguish between a horse that is doing an extended trot and a horse that has naturally big gaits.

An Iberian horse can do a very nice correct extended trot if it is taught in the proper sequence after collected and medium trot. Also the natural gait size and suspension varies between individual horses.

Good WBs, standard bred, Fresuans and other harness breeds can have amazing big floaty natural trots before any training but what you see in the field isn’t necessarily or even usually an extended trot.

Obviously a horse with this kind of gait will look phenomenal once it is fully schooled but it doesn’t mean it is doing the movement better, but rather that it has better gaits. Which are a separate score.

Sometimes these horses lose that quality of gait when they start under saddle. Some get it back through correct training, others never do if the rider isn’t comfortable with the big gaits.

Also since you need collection as a foundation for a real extended trot, it can be hard to get some harness breeds such as standard bred trained up to that level, even if they have a natural huge floaty trot.

Iberian horses in general collect better than other breeds. My coach’s green broke Andie filly can do canter pirouette as a disobedience! The FEI rules though have adapted as others pointed out to favor big gaits and big movement over collection, as that suits the modern WB.

[MysticOakRanch]

@Scribbler

Obviously a horse with this kind of gait will look phenomenal once it is fully schooled but it doesn’t mean it is doing the movement better, but rather that it has better gaits. Which are a separate score.

.

I’m not sure I should even open this can o’ worms, but… Here goes - better gaits are not a separate score - they are part of every. single. movement. score. Read the directives - each movement includes “quality of the trot”, “quality of the canter”, aka better gaits DOES mean the horse is doing it better according to the competitive directives. I’m not saying I feel this is how it SHOULD be, but it is how it IS.

[netg]

@lorilu

Competitive dressage grew out of the military training of horses - not the “baroque or classical” style of horse but the leggier (dare I say eventng/all around?) type. In fact early dressage tests included a jump ( I recall reading that somewhere). Additionally, the FEI is based in the warmblood type of horse and the German style of training (although if you go far enough back, the OLDEST old masters had much in common). Note that the most successful horses are warmbloods, and the baroques are only now being appreciated in the dressage arena - as they have been bred to have longer more “warmbloody” gaits.
I am sure some will dispute all I have written. Just my take on it.

Agreed with lorilu.

The military training is also classical, but a different goal than exhibition dressage. There are also classical schools based upon the needed work for bullfighting, for example. For a military campaign you need longer strides with suspension to make ground cover and comfortable gaits for horse and rider. For bullfighting, suspension can be dangerous as it increases response time to a bull’s movements. Both can be considered classical, but only one is the real guiding force behind the dressage directives for competition. Then beyond that, you can get into German vs French school, flexions, lightness and balance before forward vs driving forward to achieve softness and balance, and you are still talking about classical riding.

Add it all up, and you get the answer as to why someone using the phrase “classical” can often be very misleading if you have different interpretations. I have come to understand that to some people classical dressage can not have suspension, to others you can not have much in the way of contact and call yourself classical, to others all that matters is the nose is in front of the vertical. To the majority of the people I respect, classical means you are progressively developing the horse to learn to carry more weight behind and fold its hind legs, using methods which have been around for centuries. That last definition is one which can work perfectly well within the competitive ring with very high scores.

[Scribbler]

@MysticOakRanch

I’m not sure I should even open this can o’ worms, but… Here goes - better gaits are not a separate score - they are part of every. single. movement. score. Read the directives - each movement includes “quality of the trot”, “quality of the canter”, aka better gaits DOES mean the horse is doing it better according to the competitive directives. I’m not saying I feel this is how it SHOULD be, but it is how it IS.

Yes you are totally correct in terms of how it is scored in the tests. I was talking more generally, saying that you can get a horse doing clear collected, medium and extended gaits that are correctly executed. But that if size of gait is part of the judging criteria (which is what quality tends to mean in practice) then horses with naturally big gaits will have a scoring advantage as the competition dressage is currently constituted. So I think we actually agree.