I had a recent lesson with a fabulous classical dressage teacher. What I always thought was correct contact, in her method, is considered a tight, or closes, or compressed throatlatch. Why is an open throatlatch important? I never even heard about that in all the years of modern dressage lessons. Thanks!
And who is that fabulous classical dressage teacher?
I don’t know which « modern » trainers you previously had lessons with but if you haven’t even heard about this simple concept, your trainers weren’t really good.
Also, contact and open throatlatch are two different things not necessarily linked.
Your horse could be closed but with no contact.
Your horse could have a strong contact and be quite open.
I’ve took lessons and/or spoke with FEI trainers/judges from France, Germany, Italy, Nederlands, Mexico, England, name it…
Maybe you wanted to talk about Rollkur here… ? or LDR?
I would not do so that early in the morning…my white wine isn’t cold enough yet.
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A very simplified answer - ignoring a lot of things that CAN happen with contact… We want the horse to REACH to the connection, not be pulled into the connection.
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Ok, got it. Good answer! Thanks MysticOakRanch!
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If you look at any dressage manual published before about 1950, it will constant warn about not going behind the vertical.
A horse can be on the vertical but stretching to the bit, and have an open throatlatch and telescoped neck. It can also be in front of, on, or behind the vertical and be jammed or closed.
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The open throatlatch suggests that the horse is making a telescoping gesture with the neck, which lifts the base of the neck (one of the things that needs to happen before the horse takes weight behind), and shows that the horse is reaching for, but not leaning on, the contact. Ideally your “neutral” contact, meaning the connection with the horse’s face that gives you feedback, but doesn’t ask anything of the horse, should be the weight of the reins more than that and you have some issue to work out.
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An open throat latch indicates the horse is engaging.
Here is an image of a horse in highest collection (piaffe) with an open throat latch with real “sit.” This requires that the horse shift its weight to the haunches…thus the obvious uphill posture of the movement
In contrast to the more “modern” eg., horizontal outline of having a horse on or behind the vertical
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An open throatlatch suggests “reach” to the bit like Mystic Oak Ranch said. That reach means the horse is moving forward into the contact and using the correct topline muscles. A closed throatlatch suggests tightness in the neck. I don’t think it has much to do with in front of or behind the vertical, and has more to do with individual horse breeding and build. I think it is difficult to compare the throatlatch in a heavier baroque stallion to a “modern” WB who isn’t a stallion. The builds are too different and the difference in collected and extended work is so different.
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No, it’s more about the riding technique rather than the conformation. I’ve seen a variety of the same horses ridden both ways.
It’s true that a horse with a very thick neck may not be able to get his head on the vertical, whereas an Arab or a saddlebred may evade by rolling behind.
But the open/closed throat thing the OP is discussing isn’t dependent on whethet the face is vertical or not. It’s about whether the horse is telescoping to the bit. A modern warm blood with a refined neck should be able to reach for the bit in this fashion way more obviously than an older heavier style Baroque horse.
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Although I love the “sit” in the baroque pics posted above I don’t agree that the neck is telescoping. To me it looks crunched and upside down. I’d imagine in work that requires push not just engagement that it would feel hollow in the back.
the warmblood example shows not much engagement I agree. There are many modern competition Dressage horses that do sit behind without going behind the vertical.
I think over the back and on the bit is the same thing desired wheather classical or not. We should all be aiming for self carriage and a horse telescoping to the bit.
is it always achieved? Obviously not.
Should we ride our Warmbloods the same way as a baroque horse? I don’t think so either.
We want to achieve the highest levels of collection regardless of breed but they can all train the same way or have the same strengths and weaknesses.
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I have an older style warmblood (although not long in the back and short legged, just very thick and heavy). She has a short muscular neck and a very small space in the throatlatch area, much like the depicted baroque horses. I am showing her grand prix and she has done very well at every level up to this level. The problem I have at GP is that in order to get more lift from very heavy shoulders and show poll at highest and the ultimate in engagement, I have to let her nose out or breathing is too difficult for her (you can audibly hear her)–at least this is the case at the moment. She very much feels telescoped to the bit–taking it forward, not leaning on it and I have a nice strong, but steady contact. Her contact is strong because of her heavier front end (we can debate about this, but she has always been like this). She is through, she takes half halts easily, we go immediately into passage or piaffe, etc. But the picture is very much nose in front. About 20% of judges can see what is happening and score us appropriately; the other 80% hate the picture and will dock each movement.
I have had some of the best rides ever on this horse at recent shows: obedient, swinging, powerful, very few mistakes. I get docked one point per movement for the nose in front of the vertical (although no criticism on engagement, balance or suppleness; no claims of being “hollow”). The interesting thing is that judges interpret this fault differently: one says she is “against the hand” during each movement; the other says she is “above the bit” in each movement. But she is neither or I couldn’t do the test, especially not with so few mistakes! As a side note, this has only been a problem at GP because this is where I’m damned either way: either I don’t have her uphill enough (which only seemed to be an issue at this level) or I have her uphill enough, but she is unable to put her face close to the vertical.
A modern built horse will be able to show the telescoped open throatlatch much easier than a thick, baroque looking old style horse. I know my horse is telescoped, not because you can SEE the space in the throatlatch, but because I can HEAR it and feel her taking my hand (not pulling). I don’t believe they can be truly engaged without telescoping to the contact because you would lose the circle of aids. Therefore I disagree with the poster above who says that the horse’s neck is smashed and not telescoped–that is telescoped for the very tiny space they have to do it in!
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It sounds like you’ve done an impressive job with your horse. I venture to say that you don’t look quite like the baroque pic above because you described a pretty girl connection and the photo above shows zero contact.
The reins are actually slack.
a short neck confirmationally is different then what I see in the photo above. The photo above looks to be a horse that holds himself in that short open frame without much influence from the hind legs. For you to do each element of a GP Dressage test without mistakes means that your horse is indeed moving from back to front and using the back.
i very much enjoy watching classical Dressage exercises and have been to the Spanish rising school but I don’t see those horses performing every single element of a Grand Prix dressage test with complete throughness.
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Pretty girl connection? Hahahaha! I hope that was autocomplete…
Omg!!!
i love it!
i don’t know how to edit so its staying
My point. Thank you. They CAN still go behind the vertical with that telescoping neck, which is not seen in a heavier style Baroque horse due to build. But you want them to stay up in front. Both beasts will navigate this differently due to build.
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Focusing just on the head position is a problem whichever side of the fence you are on in regard to btv.
I have seen horses with good engagement and an open poll momentarily roll behind the vertical. And I have seen horses carrying themselves on contact with wonderful engagement but ahead of the vertical, what the poster above describes where she is getting marked down in her GP tests.
And of course horses heavy on the forehand wherever their noses are.
The nose is the last part of the equation. You need stretching to the bit and stepping under behind and raising the withers. And then as the horse progresses you need the neck lifting as the hind end gets more sitting power.
I don’t agree that a slack rein means the horse is above the bit or evading contact necessarily. If the horse is actually moving off seat and leg aids in collection, he can maintain that position without contact or without constant contact. Western horses can go collected on draped reins, and this is not evasion or above the bit. If anything it is behind the bit. But I think you could describe draped reins as very light contact if the horses remains responsive to cues and simply doesn’t need rein pressure at that point. A horse that can really collect doesn’t necessarily need to be held up by the hands in that position. A more forward or hotter horse might need containment or continual half halts.
Of course if you are showing in a discipline where appearance of contact is a judging criteria you could also take up the slack so it looks like horse is on contact.
I’d agree it might be hard to totally tell watching a 5 minute ride on a strange horse whether it’s evasion or self carriage, and evasion is what a judge would be ready to see and comment on, as a fault. You might need to ride a horse to accurately assess this.
Anyhow I have a friend who switched trainers. Her old trainer told her to lean her entire body weight on the reins to get the horse “round.” Now that friend sees the error of that, interestingly she’s still fixated on where the head is, only now she’s always commenting on horses being btv. Still without looking at what the hind end is doing.
That’s what I mean by too much focus on the head. I realize btv goes along often with a bunch of other problems (on the forehand, trailing hocks, broken neck, closed poll) but you need to look at the whole posture of the horse.
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Scribbler,
This thread isn’t about head position, it’s about an open throatlatch. The stretch in the neck is paramount, reflects the topline work, and independent of nose position. That said, an open throatlatch is easier for some horses to “get” than others, and it depends on their build and way of going. But it means that the horse is using the topline and the head position falls into place for that horse. This is a goal in dressage.
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Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to say! 
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ANd now perhaps we can get over the “but he is (fractionally) BTV!!! BAD!!!” comments when the picture clearly shows a horse that is Over the back and engaged? Asking for a friend.
Your friend is annoying…
