Classical Masters: Holding the whip up in the hand whilst riding

[emipou]

[QUOTE=blonderider;8377160]
This is a perfect explanation why you would hold the whip upright.[/QUOTE]

Charles de Kunffy said in a recent clinic that it really shouldn’t matter what side the whip was on. The horse should respond to it regardless.
To add to that, I’ve been taught that the only reason it should really matter what side the whip is on would be in relation to flexion and movement of the whip not interfering with your hands and contact with the bit.

All that to the side of this,… if you look at the link I provided earlier, you will see an explanation of the whip held upright. I suspect that is not actual whipping involved with holding it upright. It’s held upright for other reasons.

[BaroquePony]

I like de Kunffy a lot …

I have had German, Austrian and Swedish instructors all ask me (and others) the same question … “Which side of the horse do you carry the whip on?”.

I used to say, “The outside.” Well, they all said, “The side you need it on.”

If your horse doesn’t understand moving his shoulder over to be in the correct bend … or if he doesn’t always get the right inside bend … or if his haunches are falling out on the outside … all you have to do is tap … he should understand what you are asking then …

[BaroquePony]

On a relaxed horse that is willing. Let’s hope that is where this is going.

[emipou]

… ideally. In theory.

The horse I am referring to was so lazy, and so on the forehand, and so dead to the leg and the whip, and went through somewhat of a restart to make her more responsive to the aids…
I think the trainer who used this technique (who also had the whip the other way, over the leg previous to this), was just trying something new with her. She was so forward and responsive that night with the whip upright. It was amazing. Obviously you wouldn’t want to use this technique too often.

As far as which side I carry the whip… I tend to keep it on the inside, but sometimes I just keep it in my left hand because that’s more comfortable. I prefer it on the inside though.

[BaroquePony]

Getting the horse responsive to the aids needs to happen … but hopefully with a minimum of work to get where he knows he will get a swat if he doesn’t listen to a lighter aid. The colder the blood the stronger the swat usually. I prefer hotter blooded characters … and I won’t work with some horses because they are just too cold blooded and I don’t enjoy that much work … I weigh like 125 pounds and I don’t want to look like Arnold Schwarzenegger in a dress.

[Bogey2]

[QUOTE=emipou;8377016]
Maybe I’m confusing all of this… The way I was told to use it was to hold upright in my hand and when I could not get forward, I was told to wiggle my hand with the whip so as to make a noise. And the noise of the whip was what she reacted to, and it was a very effective tool.

She was not scared of it, but did react. When I didn’t need more response from her, it sat quietly upright in my hand as I rode.

*the whip did not touch her, or go down against my leg once in this time.

So I’m just wondering - when you see the masters with their whips upright, are they using the same technique? Is it just a resting state?[/QUOTE]

me too…I never hit the horse with the whip using this technique. Who would hit the horse on the head with it? yikes

[Wicky]

FWIW, I ride (schooling) with two whips, one on each side, so that I can quickly address whichever leg need a correction. Leg is the aide, whip is the reminder, getting stronger if the horse ignores it.

And if a horse were rearing, I would tap its poll to get the front end down. Rearing is dangerous. OF course, I am not sure I am fast enough to accomplish that, but in theory it should work.

[Halfling]

So is it legal to carry the whip this way in a dressage test?

[Gamma]

Hmm. I was trained this way as a kid, but maybe in a very different spirit from how a dressage rider would use it. I understand that in dressage the whip is an additional cue for some movements, not (always) a corrective aid but in our case, we were only given a crop/whip when it was very clear that the horse was ignoring correctly given cues for basic movements (like “canter”). It was very rare that we were given any kind of crop at all. The student would ask with the normal aids, and if the horse ignored the request then apply the crop once, hard, behind the leg (and hold on, because the horse is going to go!). The crop was held upright so that there was a clear difference between holding the crop and using the crop, it wasn’t possible to nag with the crop or accidentally tap on the shoulder with it. Most of the horses were very responsive to legs, and the few who occasionally got the crop were definitely responsive to the crop. None of them would ever be anything that could be called “crop dead” because they knew if the crop came down we absolutely meant it. These days, if I carry a crop I prefer a short bat length, for the same reasons. It is on or it is off, no bouncing and tapping accidentally. (And again, I’m not using it to give subtle cues for upper level movements, I’m using it only if I have to as a corrective when the horse says “you can’t make me” to a reasonable request.)

[LookmaNohands]

Parelli-ites do this.

I have no idea why.

[BaroquePony]

This is how we grew up riding, also (Gamma’s post below). To advanced over fences and dressage tests on relaxed swinging school horses that were on the aids and not fancy horses. Very few people carried a crop … although we did learn how to use it … usually on a more cold blooded school horse or pony cross that might be a tad lazy. Most weren’t.

The SRS (Spanish Riding School) says that a rider should be able to do all training (through maybe 3rd level) essentially without the whip or the spurs. They should develop their seat and leg aids to where they really understand how to use them and can use them. I believe their theory is that it takes strength, balance, coordination and brain power to do this. Takes time and patience and persistence and decent eyes on the ground (instructor) off and on.

But, I believe they school all of their young riders on schooled horses for a lot of the learning process. Then they begin to train horses after they have become pretty accomplished.

The whip and spurs are for people who are advanced enough to use them with control and accuracy and understanding.

Posted by Gamma:

Hmm. I was trained this way as a kid, but maybe in a very different spirit from how a dressage rider would use it. I understand that in dressage the whip is an additional cue for some movements, not (always) a corrective aid but in our case, we were only given a crop/whip when it was very clear that the horse was ignoring correctly given cues for basic movements (like “canter”). It was very rare that we were given any kind of crop at all. The student would ask with the normal aids, and if the horse ignored the request then apply the crop once, hard, behind the leg (and hold on, because the horse is going to go!). The crop was held upright so that there was a clear difference between holding the crop and using the crop, it wasn’t possible to nag with the crop or accidentally tap on the shoulder with it. Most of the horses were very responsive to legs, and the few who occasionally got the crop were definitely responsive to the crop. None of them would ever be anything that could be called “crop dead” because they knew if the crop came down we absolutely meant it. These days, if I carry a crop I prefer a short bat length, for the same reasons. It is on or it is off, no bouncing and tapping accidentally. (And again, I’m not using it to give subtle cues for upper level movements, I’m using it only if I have to as a corrective when the horse says “you can’t make me” to a reasonable request.)

[Bogey2]

[QUOTE=Halfling;8377513]
So is it legal to carry the whip this way in a dressage test?[/QUOTE]
no

[emipou]

[QUOTE=Bogey2;8377407]
me too…I never hit the horse with the whip using this technique. Who would hit the horse on the head with it? yikes[/QUOTE]

That comment actually made me laugh. I thought it was a joke. I’ve decided that page 1 of this thread is “emipou and her new peanut gallery”

[emipou]

[QUOTE=Halfling;8377513]
So is it legal to carry the whip this way in a dressage test?[/QUOTE]

I don’t think this technique is even meant to be used often enough to make it to a test.

[cnm161]

It can be helpful for horses who have a backwards-acting reaction to actually being tapped with the whip, or horses who have become ‘dead’ to the whip. The noise is enough to wake them up without them having to get defensive about being touched.

It can also be helpful for piaffe/passage to add elevation. Actually tapping the hip can have the adverse affect of grounding the hind leg if not timed well.

[theresak]

I may not be 100% accurate on this - but I think this whip hold is generally used on more schooled horses in higher collection.

You need a very straight horse for the p/p, and having the whip straight up means the horse can’t see it out of the corner of a single eye, and therefore use one hind leg better than the other. Also with it above, you can “activate” both sides of the horse by waving it back and forth so the horse sees and hears it on both sides of the body.

[netg]

[QUOTE=cnm161;8377760]
It can be helpful for horses who have a backwards-acting reaction to actually being tapped with the whip, or horses who have become ‘dead’ to the whip. The noise is enough to wake them up without them having to get defensive about being touched.

It can also be helpful for piaffe/passage to add elevation. Actually tapping the hip can have the adverse affect of grounding the hind leg if not timed well.[/QUOTE]

Thank you to those of you who gave serious answers. I have used this technique several years ago, without knowing the history and philosophy behind it or if that was at all a reasonable answer to emipou’s question.
It was used for my TB, who fit cnm’s description above. He is very high energy, but was sucked back and did not go forward in response to the whip. I had more luck with no spurs or whip on him until we used this technique. I didn’t whip it to make a noise even, but just moved it so he would catch it in his vision, and he knew it was the whip - and that was motivation enough to respond as he should have (but at the time didn’t) when the whip was used properly by the leg. A few rides like this instilled the forward off the leg reaction, then I switched the whip to carried on one side by my leg and he responded more correctly to it.

[belgianWBLuver]

[QUOTE=emipou;8377305]
Charles de Kunffy said in a recent clinic that it really shouldn’t matter what side the whip was on. The horse should respond to it regardless. [/QUOTE]

CdK is correct as usual

@emipou;8377305

To add to that, I’ve been taught that the only reason it should really matter what side the whip is on would be in relation to flexion and movement of the whip not interfering with your hands and contact with the bit.

And on the side you need it whilst perform lateral work. IE: if you are doing shoulder in left and you need to reinforce your inside leg OR if you are doing a 15 M circle and horsey is escaping to the outside and not listening to your outside leg you carry whip to the outside and use it.

@emipou;8377305

All that to the side of this,… if you look at the link I provided earlier, you will see an explanation of the whip held upright. I suspect that is not actual whipping involved with holding it upright. It’s held upright for other reasons.

The ONLY time I have seen the whip carried upright correctly was when a rider wanted to “show” the ultimate lightness and responsiveness of his mount. José Carlos Franco da Silva Athayde, a 30+ year student of Oliveira, explained to me that this was the primary reason for exhibiting the whip straight up in the air. In essence your horse is in “descent de main/jambes” meaning he becomes light and almost airy in his collection and impulsion with very little to no aides from his rider (all aides are released).
Needless to say this is only obtained from an extremely well schooled animal and a rider who has total control of his body.

I am not aware of any other uses for the whip in the air other than the above explanation.
However at my stage of training with my guy, when I wish to change the whip from one side to the other I simply toss it up over the withers (like a baton) grabbing it with the other hand’s open fingers. Needless to say I had to habituate my guy to this as in the beginning he was a little “weirded out” by this movement.

[Pennybright]

…cultural significance and use of the whip

This is a trailer for BBranderup’s short film on the topic.

http://www.bentbranderupshop.com/videos/academic-whip.html

[emipou]

Wonderful! Thanks for sharing this.