Anyone not like clicker training? We’re going to give it a try with Daisy; just bought the clicker a few days ago. All the trainers I contacted use clickers now so it seems that’s the way it will go.
Anyone here switch to clickers from traditional training? Did you switch back or stick with it?
We do predominantly clicker training. Everything from agility to obedience. I describe it as a simple concept but with much finesse required to do it well. Many years into training and my agility instructor still works on refining my skills with a clicker
I use a clicker as a tool. It’s not a substitute for all training, but it’s really great for pinpointing desirable behaviors and teaching YOU how to break down training issues into discrete parts. One thing that I have done with the current dog and will do going forward is to not always make the “treat” part of “click and treat” to be food. Sometimes now the “treat” is a butt scratch or something else highly desirable for the dog.
my hubby is very good at it. He has trained his horses and all of our dogs with it.
I love it. I have used it in agility as well as obedience and trick training. It is awesome to watch them think and try different behaviors to get the click.
Back when I first used it I had thought it was “gimmicky” until my agility star started bailing off the dog walk if there was a tunnel under it. The trainer took a minute to accustom him to the clicker=good! and then started using it to get him over the dog walk/tunnel issue. Took about 5 minutes and he was loving it! Ever since then I’ve been hooked!
Enzo learned sit,off, down, shake, over, step up (two and all four feet), touch it, place, and I’m sure a couple more I’m forgetting! All those in the first two weeks (between 9-11weeks) with the help of a clicker.
If you’re looking for ideas of things to teach her, some practical some just fun, check out this website. http://domorewithyourdog.com/pages/trickdogtitle.html
I didn’t buy the books, I just printed out the application for novice, it has a BIG list of tricks to work on. A friend of mine has set up a FB page and is willing to “grade” tricks based on video submissions and can issue your title if you’re interested.
My obedience trainer does not use clickers. However, in the case of a shy puppy like yours, I would most definitely start using a clicker to reinforce behaviors you want. It’s quick and easy for them, and it’s FUN FUN FUN!!
My trainer does competitive obedience, and uses more traditional methods (voice and leash) rather than clickers. While she is ALL about fun too (and in fact, says that many competitive obedience people are just way too serious in their training, and that’s why they fail), she will use a stern voice, a leash pop, etc. to direct a dog as well. But I would not consider that a good way to start with a puppy, and certainly not a puppy like you are describing.
At this point, you shouldn’t really need to correct “wrong” behavior. All you should be doing is teaching the correct behaviors.
Clicker training is a wonderful technique for teaching any animal anything. It is not the be-all and end-all of training, but there is no better method ever invented for a) teaching a dog a new behavior, or b) finessing a behavior into perfection.
Most people nowadays start off all dogs with a clicker, move into proofing using rewards, move back to the clicker to fix and finesse certain behaviors, go back to proofing using rewards, and only at the very end do they even consider using corrections. Some people firmly believe that you can’t get 99% reliability without doing a “correction” phase, but the necessity of this step is unclear because a lot of people seem to manage quite well without it. I suspect it depends on the dog and the particular behavior under discussion. For example, most dogs need a few weeks in an ecollar (negative reinforcement) to get a really reliable real-life recall, but most dogs can learn how to heel, sit, stay very reliably without any need for a correction phase.
Only a few ancient holdouts- usually in the pet-dog training and a few obedience people- continue to use archaic and not very effective methods like leash-pops and Koehler-style manipulations.
-when you’re first learning how to clicker-train you may feel quite clumsy and like you are all thumbs. I’ve actually attended seminars where the people spent time practicing clicking at the precise moment and spent time clicker-training each other as practice for training dogs. It’s an easy concept but in actual practice it well, takes practice. Particularly when you’re trying to finesse a behavior- have to click at precisely the right moment.
How are you doing with Daisy and the clicker training? I bet you will both love it.
I have used it with many of my past hounds, and they have done very well. I used it with my latest CD wolfhound, Tori, intermittently, not for everything. One thing I found very helpful was also to have a “Payment” word (mine is “Yes!”) that you can use like a clicker, you must always give a treat or other reward after you say it, just as you do for a click.
I’m just about to start 6 week old vision-impaired Vanga with the clicker.
I just signed up for the Sue A. conformation class on the Fenzi website at the cheapo level. I really like her, and like her Levels Training, which you might consider with Daisy.
I use clicker training for some things, but not everything. I love the concept but I find, for me, it doesn’t always pan out the way I want it to. While I have great timing, having treats + clicker + leash in my hands can be difficult for me (I have some hand mobility issues though).
Example of when I love it:
Teaching tricks at home: Maizy, my Springer Spaniel, learned to carry a basket in a few training sessions with use of the clicker. First it was a click whenever she touched it, and then we slowly shaped the behaviour to picking up the basket, and then to carrying it.
Example of when I dislike it:
At dog school… I find it VERY distracting when others use clickers in class, so I don’t bring mine. If my dog knows the click means she did the right thing and another person ‘clicks’, she’s going to hear the sound and go “Ta-da!”. How is this different from somebody saying “Yes!” or “Good dog!”? Well the click tends to be quite loud and sharp. People’s voices aren’t as loud and my dog is better able to tell the difference between voices vs clickers.
[QUOTE=wendy;8079764]
Only a few ancient holdouts- usually in the pet-dog training and a few obedience people- continue to use archaic and not very effective methods like leash-pops and Koehler-style manipulations.[/QUOTE]
This may be your experience. My instructor isn’t ancient, nor is she a “pet” trainer. Her feelings are that clickers become a dependency for many people, and they never graduate past the click and treat stage, which does not work very well for competition (obviously there are great obedience trainers that use clickers, too). She most definitely uses positive reinforcement, just not a clicker but a word (hers is “yes”)…and things like “leash pops” are only used on dogs that are already trained (not as a training method).
But, whatever. We can agree to disagree. I agree that positive reinforcement based training is most appropriate for a puppy (whether with a clicker or a word), and especially a shy puppy to build confidence and understanding.
I really like it. I tend to use it for things that I’m having a hard time doing the “normal way.” The last time I got the clicker out was for the mare I had that was evading the mounting block. Had spent a week on and off trying to straighten it out the normal way, took about 15 mins with the clicker and the issue was done.
Very handy tool :yes:
I use a clicker during agility with my dog. Started using it because she was getting sticky and not wanting to move forward around the course. Would stop and want to be “paid” for obstacles before she would move forward. Having really good results overcoming her wanting to stop for payment on course.
Agree with S1969. Clickers can be great but some people cannot see beyond the clicker. It’s most effective when it is one of many training tools. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I found c/t in the early 2000’s and have never looked back. I use it to teach initial skills for everything. I had a Corgi that had been ear pinched exactly 3 times and totally shut down. C/t, had her screaming across the room to snatch up the dumbbell she would not even glance at in less that 10 minutes. There was no going back for me. I started with big pieces of behavior, and gradually increased my skill level and began to teach complex behaviors and chains. I’ve used it on cats, dogs, birds and horses. Tho I do not recommend it for horses unless you are skilled in keeping horses out of your personal space to begin with.
Having fun so far. Although I can’t say it made a huge difference in working on sit/down/stand, I am pretty amazed at it’s effectiveness in helping training “heel”.
[QUOTE=saultgirl;8081649]
Having fun so far. Although I can’t say it made a huge difference in working on sit/down/stand, I am pretty amazed at it’s effectiveness in helping training “heel”.[/QUOTE]
It’s not magic - it takes time and repetition before the dog will get any association with your command and their actions. The clicker is to help them get it faster, but it still takes time. Be careful to make sure you are being very clear about asking for the same thing each time. And, realize that “sit” in the kitchen is a completely different request than “sit” anywhere else…especially for a puppy.
10 minutes, 2x a day, and call it done no matter what was achieved – if possible, end on something the puppy knows…but no matter what the result, it gets tons of praise for trying. A puppy/dog that gets rewarded for trying will want to work for you. One that only gets rewarded for getting things correct will get frustrated easily.
[QUOTE=S1969;8081768]
It’s not magic - it takes time and repetition before the dog will get any association with your command and their actions. The clicker is to help them get it faster, but it still takes time. Be careful to make sure you are being very clear about asking for the same thing each time. And, realize that “sit” in the kitchen is a completely different request than “sit” anywhere else…especially for a puppy.
10 minutes, 2x a day, and call it done no matter what was achieved – if possible, end on something the puppy knows…but no matter what the result, it gets tons of praise for trying. A puppy/dog that gets rewarded for trying will want to work for you. One that only gets rewarded for getting things correct will get frustrated easily.[/QUOTE]
That is so true! I always reward effort, and being “in the game”, because the wolfhounds are not as naturally inclined to find the work itself very much fun, I have to use quite a high rate of reinforcement, especially initially.
I recall reading that one difference between really good trainers and average ones was that the better trainers used a higher rate of reinforcement, and gave more feedback.
Though I realize OP is not concerned with this, many of us are, so I thought I’d mention that the challenge is then getting that behavior with the same enthusiasm in the ring, where you can’t give much feedback, but it can be done. This is the step where many people fall short, and conclude that “Clicker training doesn’t work”. I think there is a Fenzi course this semester that addresses this exact thing.
Variable and random reinforcement using didfferent reinforcers is key! If done correctly, the dog should get more enthusiastic the longer it works.
Eventually, you may need to “Stop Paying for Onesies” as one clinician put it.
One form of feedback you can give in the ring, and I do, as Tori is really sensitive to it, is to smile! She really picks up on that. I grin like a madwoman in the ring.
[QUOTE=S1969;8081768]
It’s not magic - it takes time and repetition before the dog will get any association with your command and their actions. The clicker is to help them get it faster, but it still takes time. Be careful to make sure you are being very clear about asking for the same thing each time. And, realize that “sit” in the kitchen is a completely different request than “sit” anywhere else…especially for a puppy.
10 minutes, 2x a day, and call it done no matter what was achieved – if possible, end on something the puppy knows…but no matter what the result, it gets tons of praise for trying. A puppy/dog that gets rewarded for trying will want to work for you. One that only gets rewarded for getting things correct will get frustrated easily.[/QUOTE]
I wasn’t being clear – the work I was doing w/ sit/down/stand didn’t seem to come any faster with the clicker compared to training I had done previously with other dogs without a clicker, but it seemed to speed up the “heel/loose leash” a lot. I am happy with it and will keep working wtih the clicker. She is catching on to a lot, quickly.
I am thrilled with how much attention she pays to me. She is constantly offering eye contact (and she is always rewarded for that).
10min at one time is a bit much for her; I try to do 2-5 min sessions up to 10x throughout the day (working on all different things in different environments - kitchen, yard, driveway, in the barn, etc).
One question I do have, though – if she’s done something right and I click, how best to respond if she does something really naughty between the click and treat (a lot can happen in one second!)? I’ve been ignoring the “naughty” (usually jumping up) and still giving the treat, because I’m already in teh process of handing it to her at that point. Should I withdraw the treat or no? My current understanding is that a click must always be followed by the reward, is this correct?
[QUOTE=Houndhill;8081793]
That is so true! I always reward effort, and being “in the game”, because the wolfhounds are not as naturally inclined to find the work itself very much fun, I have to use quite a high rate of reinforcement, especially initially.
I recall reading that one difference between really good trainers and average ones was that the better trainers used a higher rate of reinforcement, and gave more feedback…[/QUOTE]
Interesting that you say that, because this is the one place where I feel the clicker isn’t quite as good as voice – I feel like I can convey so much more enthusiasm for a job well done at that instant with my voice as opposed to a single click. But I do give lots of enthusiasm when I’m giving the treat, too. That’s part of the fun for me.
I’ll keep in mind about smiling as a reinforcement, thanks!
[QUOTE=saultgirl;8082068]
Interesting that you say that, because this is the one place where I feel the clicker isn’t quite as good as voice – I feel like I can convey so much more enthusiasm for a job well done at that instant with my voice as opposed to a single click. But I do give lots of enthusiasm when I’m giving the treat, too. That’s part of the fun for me.
I’ll keep in mind about smiling as a reinforcement, thanks![/QUOTE]
Verbal praise that conveys enthusiasm is great! Using a clicker does not prevent you from doing that, simultaneously delivering a treat or whatever reinforcement you are using, tug session or whatever.
But sometimes we overestimate how valuable our verbal praise and enthusiasm is to the dog. Also, without the click, sometimes it is not as clear to the dog precisely what they are being praised verbally for (ouch, I know both those sentences aren’t grammatically correct! Forgive me!)
What you might want to experiment with is after an especially good performance of whatever behavior you are working on, click, and then “jackpot” give several treats in a row, or really high value treats, or a play session, or whatever your dog thinks is just the greatest.
And yes, you must "pay"i.e. reinforce with treat for the click you gave, which marked the desired behavior, even if there has been other behavior in between. Just make a note of that undesired behavior and figure out a way to fix it later.
You will soon get the food off your body so there will be more latency between the click and the reinforcement. I train my dogs during dinner, dividing it into portions with the bowls on the counter. Then I do one behavior, or several, or a chain, and click or “yes” it, we run to the counter and dogs gets bowl put down.
Tori finds this especially reinforcing. I’ve even taken her food bowl to kennel club to practice, and to trials. It gets her incredibly revved up (well, for a wolfhound!)
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