clothing turnout questions - woman attire

[winfieldfarm]

i am scouring the house for my On The Box Seat copy as I researched this topic and read that Tom had lots to say about this.

In the mean time:

Where can I get SPECIFIC info and PICS of appropriate clothes and hats to match particluar vehicles.

I recently attended Walnut Hill for the first year and got quite a bit of conflicting advice on what to wear with different vehicles?

Here are some specific ?'s

Gigs - are they all formal or are some a little more country than others? If so, how to you dress appropriately to a specific gig without being counted down for not being “formal enough”

Gig hats - I was told that they are to be very small tight brim sporty hats. Why? is it because you don’t have a lot of room for two so you don’t want to be bonking hats like two bobble heads up there?

Formal coaching - I read online somewhere that daytime, woman shouldn’t even HAVE ON a hat? Hmmmm…why or why not

Any forums to read, books, articles, the like
POST THEM HERE SO I CAN STOP LOOKING LIKE A DORK ON PARADE!!

[Thomas_1]

I’ve a lot to say about it but I daren’t advise you because you’re in the USA and I know what is accepted and considered correct there would definitely sometimes fall in the :eek: “DORK” :lol: category here.

What I can do though is tell you what would be considered non-dorkish or correct here.

Gigs - are they all formal or are some a little more country than others? If so, how to you dress appropriately to a specific gig without being counted down for not being “formal enough”
Here a gig would always be more formal. The carriages that would be less formal would be the likes of the Norolk, Rally or Dog Carts.

For a lady a smart suit with a long skirt and tailored jacket and stock tied neatly and a driving apron and hat and gloves would always be correct. So smart and practical to keep you warm and dry (here anyways!).

The apron is only worn by the driver. NEVER by the passenger. Passengers wear knee rugs (no fastening buckles). Sometimes they match but they’re not the same. Aprons should always be buckled outside the jacket - ladies and men.

Aprons and jackets and hats are sometimes lightly trimmed with a contrasting colour which often picks out or compliments the colour of the horse or carriage. Too much colour would be considered “dork” - not that I’d know as it’s not a word we use What we’d say politely is lacking taste. Nowadays perhaps flashy or trashy!

Gary Docking said something recently which I thought was amusing on the subject of trim and crests (!) on aprons which I totally agreed with and found VERY funny. He said “some believe more is better - fancy braiding, elaborate crests. You don’t want to look like someone dumped a pizza in your lap!” :lol:

Gloves - ALWAYS brown and unlined and for high level showing here never other than lightweight pigskin.

Whip - here always holly except in an exercise class.

A single yellow carnation is the only button hole permitted. You don’t match the buttonhole to the carriage - tacky! and you don’t have a great flower arrangement with foliage - VERY dorky!!!

Concours d’Elegance classes can allow you to go a little more extravagant but it must still always be elegant. Indeed here it’s often the winner of the private driving class that goes on to win the Concours d’Elegance. But you could let your hat have a little more decoration and the jacket be a little more “blousier” or less fitted and tailored. But it still shouldn’t be all about what you’re wearing and colour matching. It’s to be about the presentation as a whole.

Gig hats - I was told that they are to be very small tight brim sporty hats. Why? is it because you don’t have a lot of room for two so you don’t want to be bonking hats like two bobble heads up there?
Again more a case of flashy/trashy. It’s carriage driving not ladies day at Ascot or a fancy wedding! You need to wear a hat properly. Pulled down on the forehead with the brim pretty much horizontal. Tipped up … dorky! Flopping or tilted brims … VERY dorky!!

Formal coaching - I read online somewhere that daytime, woman shouldn’t even HAVE ON a hat? Hmmmm…why or why not
I’ve not read that and indeed here hats are always worn.

[pricestory]

My natural wood front entry 2 wheel vehicle is called a “Country Gig” I do not dress formally with it, but more like I would for a road cart. Paint is one of the components which make a vehicle more formal.
I’ve never seen anything that said any lady didn’t have to wear a hat. Breed show competitors don’t always wear hats.
Vales make hats more formal. At night, hats can be brimless.
I am short but fluffy and it is very difficult to find small neat hats, without paying a fortune for them.

[Thomas_1]

Here if you wear a hat with a veil then it should be a discreet veil and not something that makes you look like you’re peering through a fire screen… Dorky

It also should be lifted if you talk to the judge. Otherwise it would be considered ill-mannered… trashy and dorky :winkgrin:

[SmokenMirrors]

I would like to add one thing to what Thomas touched on…spaghetti straps and showing so much cleavage that if you were to bend over you would give the judge a black eye from one of those falling “jugs”, that looks tacky AND trashy! Your not going to the prom and trying to lay your prom date…

[IronwoodFarm]

I appreciate the nuances of the costume in pleasure driving and CDE dressage, but I can’t bring myself to wear such outfits. I feel inherently unsafe driving without a helmet. I have no wish to wear a skirt, as I think pants provide better protection and greater safety. Since I have no interest in dressing-up the part (aside from spectating), I don’t enter competitions where my appearance matters. I stick to cones and obstacles where my attire is irrelevant to my score.

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=IronwoodFarm;4352226]
I appreciate the nuances of the costume in pleasure driving and CDE dressage, but I can’t bring myself to wear such outfits. I feel inherently unsafe driving without a helmet. [/QUOTE] You just buy a hat that looks traditional but is a safety hat. There’s plenty on the market for such occasions

I have no wish to wear a skirt, as I think pants provide better protection and greater safety.
I’m not getting this at all. If a man wears a driving apron it’s no different to a lady wearing a skirt. The apron should wrap right round.

Of course the skirt should be a practical skirt. Not a tight mini!

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=Belplosh;4352218]
I would like to add one thing to what Thomas touched on…spaghetti straps and showing so much cleavage that if you were to bend over you would give the judge a black eye from one of those falling “jugs”, that looks tacky AND trashy! …[/QUOTE] I never mentioned that. My presumption is that no one would be that trashy or dorky :winkgrin:

[winfieldfarm]

well suffice it to say that with my fastidiousness to details, i would rather be caught naked in the streets of the town square than have cleavage showing at a carriage show. That said… more questions.

pricestory - can you post a picture of that country gig in turnout so I can see your whole picture? much appreciated…

when is it right to have the white string gloves under the seat cushion?
Which vehicle types require this touch?

I recently put together what I thought was a beautiful turnout for a client’s horse I show but got some conflicting remarks about it.

Gig - black and dark blue
Dark bay almost black mare with no white markings
I wore navy apron with a cream military cut jacket, navy flowar scarf tied ascot style and peeking out the neck line. Dark navy mini topper with some feather accent and veil.

The day before i was to show, some driving friends told me not to wear white (or cream). That it “wasn’t showing well here, too sunny” Huh? I wore it anyway.

I was also told that a turnout class would need such extras as the string gloves, umbrella in your spares.

Now, Thomas, I greatly appreciate your advice as I would rather be correct to the Queen than following trends.
Why are the hats getting to peacock-like? Do the women only wear small taylored hats in your “hometown”?
I want to see so pics. Can we start posting turnout photos for critique?
At least give me some resources where I can get the right info and see pics. I read John Greenalls 4 turnout articles on the carraige driving website but I want more.

Also - in a small seated road cart. sit on the right on in the middle?

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=w![](nfieldfarm;4352253]

when is it right to have the white string gloves under the seat cushion?
Which vehicle types require this touch?[/QUOTE] Never! It was a transient fashion among some new drivers… DORKY and SILLY!

I don’t know what point the brain thinks “take your hands off the reins, take off one pair of nice expensive pig skin gloves and put on some old string ones” If it’s raining then leather on leather does eventually after a long time get slippy so what you do is OUTSIDE the show ring you change your gloves for a dry pair.

Gig - black and dark blue
Dark bay almost black mare with no white markings
I wore navy apron with a cream military cut jacket, navy flowar scarf tied ascot style and peeking out the neck line. Dark navy mini topper with some feather accent and veil.

The day before i was to show, some driving friends told me not to wear white (or cream). That it “wasn’t showing well here, too sunny” Huh? I wore it anyway.
I personally don’t like cream jackets unless it’s a hot sunny day. Much better and more practical though and for my taste, a more pleasing picture, a dark jacket and if you must do cream then just some discreet piping.

I was also told that a turnout class would need such extras as the string gloves, umbrella in your spares.
Not here!

[I]Why are the hats getting to peacock-like?
It’s probably for the same reason that old women with big wobbly bellies think it’s good to go out with a crop top and hipster trousers.

Do the women only wear small taylored hats in your “hometown”?[/I]
In the main they wear nice neat hats but we get dorks here.

Also - in a small seated road cart. sit on the right on in the middle?
here always on the left. Anything other would be considered the dorkiest of dorkiness.

And you’re starter for 10. This is me as a very young man exhibiting at The Yorkshire Show and just won the singles class (we don’t start with red rosettes ) :

[IMG]http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa178/classic-carriages/Driving/5a4e56b1.jpg)

[IronwoodFarm]

Oh Thomas, you made me smile. The days when I wore a mini are about 4 decades gone.

I don’t bother with a driving apron either – it’s like a skirt to me. I just drive with the clothes I would ride in and yes, I know it is tacky. And this is why when I show, I only enter timed events.

[whoopdeedo]

Dear Winfieldfarm: Like you as a beginner I searched everywherefor information or for an “archtype” to aspire. Providence sent us( about three of us drivers) an angel, a proven winner, right to our door step. She is Australian, and came via England. She brought her pony and her gig with her.She came asking for a “driving yard” farm where she could board. (In South Florida there is nothing.) She had won small pony pleasure in England, and in Australia and had been driving all her life.
Her values were very high as to how “Turnout” should look. I know that every item was calculated, from time spent on the ground driving her mare, to the distances covered,driving in the early morning hours, before she went to a paying job, to the hours upon hours she spent polishing and cleaning her harness and her gig. Her spares kit included the matches for the lamps on her carriage. Her driving shoes were polished, and set beside her carriage, not worn until she dressed for show class.Her apron was on her carriage waiting to be put on just before she drove. Her colors were always tastefully monotone, usually dark brown jacket perhaps with a faint paisley pattern in it, or a dark gray almost black with a slight pinstripe. She could wear a hat like Princess Diana, so there were a couple of stiff brim tilts with a smart arrow through it! She won Small Pony Championship at Walnuthill 2005 and Concourse Small Pony as well. She is in Bob Mischka’s “yellow” driving book he published three or four years ago. And, there you may see some other acceptable turnouts. She taught us more don’ts than do(s), so I will list the ones I remember, and they may be up for argument, but hey, that is why we compete.
Reds are really a no no, no jackets, no red hats for Pleasure Turnout.
Cover your skin, neck, arms. Stockings, no bare legs out from under the apron, slacks are best, and the stockings have to be knee-hi. And don’t drive turnout in a long sleeve blouse with a vest even in hot weather. You have to suffer.
No contrasting colors. Americans are big on adding color.

No wide brim hats that swallow your face, find the right hat and match your outfit.
Afternoon or morning classes can be more casual (browns) than night classes or late more formal(formal class is turnout class) ladies to drive can be more light hearted, but “nicely put together”.
In closing, in my opinion, the United States has never seen anything like her since she left . She would enter the ring/arena, usually last, glistening like a golden chariot either from heaven or from hell to beat you out of the first place trophy. She drove to win, by making the best presentation and driving correctly, absolutely perfectly.
Back in Australia now, and her champion Welsh Brumby has a little filly by her side coming up one year old now. She has promised me she will be back in five years with the new little winner.
Here are two photos from Walnut Hill 2005. These were her more conservative out fits.
Esther Goodwin has alot of friends here in the United States, I am so very proud to be one of them.
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2214460460102406991WeUPrm?vhost=good-times

[KellyS]

Perhaps this will be helpful…we showed at Devon with a dark blue/black gig the past 3 years; placing 2nd in 07/09 and 1st in 08. Here are pics of our turnout from this year.

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2024794&id=1059684218&l=159b51ecac

We’ve only ever carried a regular spares kit, halter/lead, and rain sheet with us (and the judge actually checked them this year, which was a first for us). I’ve always liked a dark suit to go with a formal turnout; adding a splash of color (for us, red) helps keep it from being too dark.

We have a new road cart (black with straw piping) for our new pony and I had no idea what to do for my husband’s turnout. I called the person who does our aprons (Sherri Lower at Hats Off Boutique) and she was great! It was really nice to get her input and she put together an “outfit” that looks fabulous.

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=whoopdeedo;4353788]
Her values were very high as to how “Turnout” should look. I know that every item was calculated, from time spent on the ground driving her mare, to the distances covered,driving in the early morning hours, before she went to a paying job, to the hours upon hours she spent polishing and cleaning her harness and her gig. Her spares kit included the matches for the lamps on her carriage. Her driving shoes were polished, and set beside her carriage, not worn until she dressed for show class.Her apron was on her carriage waiting to be put on just before she drove. Her colors were always tastefully monotone, usually dark brown jacket perhaps with a faint paisley pattern in it, or a dark gray almost black with a slight pinstripe. She could wear a hat like Princess Diana, so there were a couple of stiff brim tilts with a smart arrow through it! She won Small Pony Championship at Walnuthill 2005 and Concourse Small Pony as well. She is in Bob Mischka’s “yellow” driving book he published three or four years ago. And, there you may see some other acceptable turnouts. She taught us more don’ts than do(s), so I will list the ones I remember, and they may be up for argument, but hey, that is why we compete.
Reds are really a no no, no jackets, no red hats for Pleasure Turnout.
Cover your skin, neck, arms. Stockings, no bare legs out from under the apron, slacks are best, and the stockings have to be knee-hi. And don’t drive turnout in a long sleeve blouse with a vest even in hot weather. You have to suffer.
No contrasting colors. Americans are big on adding color.

No wide brim hats that swallow your face, find the right hat and match your outfit.
Afternoon or morning classes can be more casual (browns) than night classes or late more formal(formal class is turnout class) ladies to drive can be more light hearted, but “nicely put together”.
In closing, in my opinion, the United States has never seen anything like her since she left . She would enter the ring/arena, usually last, glistening like a golden chariot either from heaven or from hell to beat you out of the first place trophy. She drove to win, by making the best presentation and driving correctly, absolutely perfectly.
Back in Australia now, and her champion Welsh Brumby has a little filly by her side coming up one year old now. She has promised me she will be back in five years with the new little winner.
Here are two photos from Walnut Hill 2005. These were her more conservative out fits.
Esther Goodwin has alot of friends here in the United States, I am so very proud to be one of them.
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2214460460102406991WeUPrm?vhost=good-times[/QUOTE]

THANK YOU… that is a fabulous example of everything I tried to describe and explain earlier in this thread.

Now that is a very nice turnout for a lady driver. Very pleasing indeed. It’s also a really good example of the sort of hat that is appropriate. I’m not very good at describing clothing! It’s a man thing!!! But that’s very feminine and neat and absolutely right. You should never have something with a flat brim like you’d wear to a wedding or to keep the sun out of your eyes. You should never be peering from under a brim and neither should the person sitting next to you have to be sitting slanted to avoid a lady’s hat. Lady’s hats therefore should have that curled brim or box brim effect exactly as shown in the photo you put up here. Perfect picture example.

Men’s hats should also be ‘proper’. That means not the sort of grey hats you’d hire with a morning suit for a wedding. They’ve got a flat brim normally… not right! They need to be traditional style (black if you own, grey if it’s not your turnout) and with the proper turned up brim to the sides.

I also absolutely agree with her about the red shirts and trim etc etc. Here that would be really considered dorky (I do like that word ) . And red flowers!!! VERY VERY VERY dorky. Here they’re creeping in to the local shows and novice classes but at higher level … when you come up against ‘proper’ judges… WRONG! A single yellow carnation only ! Again I note that is what she has - very discreet and VERY pleasing.

And also totally right about never showing flesh and such as bare ankles poking out under the apron. WRONG! Now here women showing at high level would NEVER wear trousers/slacks under their aprons. NEVER. They’d always wear a nice plain A-line skirt and ensure that their apron was long enough to go to the floor. Underneath - even though ordinarily never seen ALWAYS stockings.

Along similar lines, jacket sleeves should be long enough so that the wrist and watch isn’t on display (for men and women)

[winfieldfarm]

Oh dear Thomas, I am so honored to have bequeathed some American slang to you. Use it wisely, lest be thought of as a dork…

Now, I have more ?'s but only to know the why’s of the how’s.

Why no red?

Why yellow carnation?

Why not slacks? ( I think I know this but want to hear the masses)

Esther’s photos are impeccable however in the one, wouldn’t you say her sleeves are too short? Her wrist is quite out there. Or is that splitting hairs. I love her turnouts and I know I am heading in the right direction because this is very similiar to mine.

NO White? This is conflicting to me because I read that a dark horse, dark carriage, dark driver, it all blends together. So “brightening up” the turnout means what exactly - only a colored scarf, pinstripes on apron?

KellyS - beautiful gig but you have a loud colored pony. I am driving a DARK CHOCOLATE bay Half Arabian with not a white hair on her. Would you change anything about your clothes if that was your horse? Also, watch out, the gurus say no red. Do they mean as a base color or as accent colors too?

Also I have a question (from my line of draught thread) Is your singletree suspended from from thr cross brace by a leather strap? Do you have the chains running diagonally from singletree to axle? Is this a Dennett spring system on your gig.

Ironwood - when you say wore a mini, what’s a mini? the hat, the apron?

Okay, Thomas, I have lots of questions about your pic, again, not because I think I am right and you are wrong but because if I see something that looks different from what I know, I want to know why it is different.

Is that hat too small for your head, no offense! Seems it should come down a little more on your crown, kinda looks like Laurel and Hardy to me ( sheepish frown)

Why does your apron stop at the knee when I see aprons going to midcalf all around me here?

Why are the shafts up that high on the horse? The whole vehicle appears to be tipping back. When does “shafts must be level” no longer apply?

Beautiful horse although he seems a little been there, done that with the cocked ankle, like hohum another ribbon, can I have some food now…teehee
Appears the young chap driving is more excited than the ol’ dobbin!

And last but certainly not least, why when I walk into these hat shops at our shows, am I surrounded by hats that are huge, gawdily decorated, and big enough to fly to mars if these are “not correct”?

My dilemma, I show in the Americas. Will I have to follow some of the trends to be considered in the ribbons - White gloves under my ass, hats that swallow my face- or will being traditionally correct be “enough” to be on the judges card?

[winfieldfarm]

Road Cart and Meadowbrook attire for ladies - please expound as well.

How do you look “country” for a country carriage? don’t worry, I know enough not to wear overalls and a cowboy hat. Give me what the specific differences are from formal painted vehicles to natural wood country vehicles.

[winfieldfarm]

Thomas, everyone I know would tell me that the breeching in your photo is REALLY LOW. Why do you have it that low down the horse’s hindquarters?

[nightmoves]

After reading all this I think I am even more confused:)

[KellyS]

I think you are going to get a lot of different opinions on here; plus you have people commenting from the US and UK.

If I were you, I’d contact someone who is known for their impeccable advice on turnout, such as John Greenall. They will be able to give you the best advice as it pertains to your pony and gig. Versus getting a lot of various opinions on the internet.

As to red, it’s a “not use” as a base color. We’ve used red as an accent color and won at both Devon and Walnut Hill so I think it passes the test as to whether it’s appropriate or not. :yes:

We treated Merlin’s color as more of a gray (which is the color he appeared in person when freshly clipped to show). We wouldn’t change our turnout if we were driving a bay or another solid color. The red keeps the turnout from getting too dark, but still let’s the focus be on the pony.

Now, with the road cart I was definitely worried about being “too dark” so we went with a camel blazer, camel/black houndstooth-pattern appron, and black fedora. Pony is bay; harness is black with brass; road cart is black with light tan piping. I think it’s going to look pretty sharp.

Another thing is just to look at as many pics as possible from shows like Walnut Hill. See what the winners in the gig classes are wearing…there is always a lot of variety in turnouts and you can identify what works best for you.

[Thomas_1]

Well spotted. The weight is all on the back end. The photo was actually taken on the way back to the car park. I was actually following some more horses and going up hill and just stopped for a moment as the ones in front were getting sorted out and Sue took the photo just as a snap. Groom was still on the backstep too. So the photo has been adjusted so it looks as if it’s on the level but it’s not. I’d rolled my apron up round my knees which is what I tend to do when I’m finished.

I think rather than the britching you’re looking at the trace. Dark horse, dark harness, dark day and a dark photo! The britching is higher than the trace and on the horse’s backside.

I agree the hat isn’t right. It wasn’t mine either!

The pony was a ride and drive dales pony. We used to show him in ridden mountain and moorland and breed classes and quite successfully. When there were driving classes at the same events we’d take the carriage etc and enter him in those too just to give extra support to the classes. We found ourself winning quite unexpectedly that day. He wasn’t my main private driving show horse though as I more often showed pairs and in more formal attire.

I actually think the carriage is a little too big for him. It was one I’d bought as a bit of a mess and restored to sell and I used to take them out on the circuit to attract buyers.

As to the “why’s” Well as with most of this sort of “stuff”, it’s just tradition. Most are no logic at all and more just a “because it’s always been that way” That’s why it’s so darned hard to get it right and not be “dorky”

I was brought up with all the old traditional ways and think I’m probably a bit of a “That’s the way it’s always been and should” type. But I do a heck of a lot now that I never would have done when I started out. Things that would make my mother’s hair curl!!! But then I don’t ever do private driving classes any more. I very occasionally judge still and then is when I go back to the recesses of my mind to recall what’s right and proper. Even so though, I’ve placed turnouts that are not quite so traditionally correct because on the day they’ve been in totality a more pleasing equipage than others that might be more “correct”.