Cold Weather Laminitis? Heated barn?

[Katy_Watts]

[QUOTE=snowrider;8913803]
Has anyone here done the diagnostics to see if these horses actually have laminitis vs sore feet? Or is “cold weather laminitis” kind of a term for sore feet.

I guess me question is are the laminae affected or no? It sounds like horses have a remarkably quick recovery with warm weather which does not remind me of laminits at all.[/QUOTE]

Your opinion seem far more solid than those who study it. If one listens to conversations among researchers at laminitis conferences, you can hear them admit that what laminitis is, is an ever widening definition. Under a microscope, changes to lamina cells occur BEFORE inflammation sets in. Some have called for new definitions, but then they can’t agree as to what to call the different forms.
I only believe what I see with my own eyes, and I don’t care what anyone calls it.

[JB]

@snowrider;8914481

There are generally bounding pulse, thickening on xray, inflammatory markers etc. If the horses are laminitic for months at a time as described above I’d expect to see something.

Of course, but again, most of these owners aren’t going to take the time and money to do those xrays - they, and their vets and farriers, KNOW it’s laminitis going on. The best most of them have is the evidence as the damage grows out months later.

It’s not like these people are seeing their horse take a few odd steps the morning after a cold night and declaring laminitis. They’ve been there, they know their horses are already metabolically challenged, most of them have have “typical” laminitis issues already, and now they are seeing the same things coming with cold weather

[Keg-A-Bacchus]

Our vet is working on trying to get someone out to x-ray him on the farm. We are also working on trying to get him sent to Florida to live with my mother’s sister pending what x-rays find. The farrier is coming out Friday to see if there is anything he can find or do to help. If we can’t find a comfortable, safe transport for him to Florida and he doesn’t improve I don’t think we can get him through another Wisconsin winter. The ground is still soft and I can’t imagine how uncomfortable he’s going to be when it freezes. I will keep you guys posted and in the meantime jingle like crazy we can pull this good guy through or get him to the south to give him a fighting chance.

[saultgirl]

So if these horses have a laminitic episode in warmer weather, would it be benefiticial or detrimental to ice the feet?

[Katy_Watts]

[QUOTE=saultgirl;8915179]
So if these horses have a laminitic episode in warmer weather, would it be benefiticial or detrimental to ice the feet?[/QUOTE]

We don’t know. Icing the feet proved useful to prevent FOS induced laminitis, where toxins in the gut enter the blood. It was never conducted on insulin induced laminitis. I don’t think we should assume it would be the same. And anyway, by the time most people actually notice the laminitis, the window to prevent is long gone. No one has ever shown that icing feet does any good once laminitis is underway.

[snowrider]

[QUOTE=Katy Watts;8914547]
Your opinion seem far more solid than those who study it. If one listens to conversations among researchers at laminitis conferences, you can hear them admit that what laminitis is, is an ever widening definition. Under a microscope, changes to lamina cells occur BEFORE inflammation sets in. Some have called for new definitions, but then they can’t agree as to what to call the different forms.
I only believe what I see with my own eyes, and I don’t care what anyone calls it.[/QUOTE]

I’m asking a question. It’s not clear to me if you own one of these horses or not or why you feel the need to dismiss my question in the name of everyone who owns one of these horses.

I think it’s a legitimate question: is the pain down to inflammed laminae or to a malfunctioning AVA shunt secondary to prior laminits episodes causing vascular damage. I posted a link to a study for more info so I’m hardly acting like I know more than people who “study this for a living”. I’m actually citing them.

There’s no need to talk down to me or dismiss the research, it’s a valid question. Obviously people aren’t having much success managing this with current techniques.

[Katy_Watts]

[QUOTE=snowrider;8916105]
I’m asking a question. It’s not clear to me if you own one of these horses or not or why you feel the need to dismiss my question in the name of everyone who owns one of these horses.

I think it’s a legitimate question: is the pain down to inflammed laminae or to a malfunctioning AVA shunt secondary to prior laminits episodes causing vascular damage. I posted a link to a study for more info so I’m hardly acting like I know more than people who “study this for a living”. I’m actually citing them.

There’s no need to talk down to me or dismiss the research, it’s a valid question. Obviously people aren’t having much success managing this with current techniques.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I’ve owned 2 of these horses, mother and daughter. I spent a lot of time collecting and reading all the science on laminitis to help my own horses. I was fortunate that my research projects on sugar in grass attracted the attention of leading laminitis researchers and I got invited to lecture or present posters to a number of conferences devoted to laminitis. I had the opportunity to ask questions directly to researchers in the hallway and around lunch tables. I collaborated with several academics on articles and projects relating to laminitis and carbohydrates in grass and feed. I am proud to say I was the only non-veterinarian to be invited to the AAEP Laminitis Researcher Workshop in 2009. Here’s the poster I presented: http://safergrass.org/pdf/AAEPposter.pdf

Here is a partial list of conferences and lectures I was invited to: http://www.safergrass.org/pdf/listallclinics.pdf

As my own horses got sore feet when it got cold, I asked this of several highly regarded researchers. At first they didn’t even acknowledge that ‘cold weather laminitis’ existed, but after a few years they acknowledged it but could only theorize as to causation. Simon Bailey et al came closest to suggesting how it might be happening and I have already posted a link to his work. His work was all in vitro and I never found any research done on live horses with the condition. There’s no money.

These theories you posted have been thrown around by many, however there has been no clinical research on this done under scientific protocols or controls. The information source you cited is a US vet that retired 25 years ago and the only research she has done is on horses described by their owners in an internet chat room. She does not attend scientific conferences and has little credibility with academics. While she is a prolific writer, very little of it is published in peer reviewed scientific journals. My interactions with her have left me with an opinion that her adherence to scientific principles is lax in spite of speaking very authoritatively. I admit I find her an aggravating subject ever since she threw me out of her chat room for questioning her science and posting abstracts that contradicted her opinions. I will give her credit that she is one to suggest using jiaogulan for cold weather laminitis, and I do think it works on some horses, including mine, as far as one can say from an uncontrolled field trial where it is impossible to control all factors and benefits are only stated in subjective terms by overwrought owners desperate for even small improvements.

So yes, good questions, but no answers out there that I ever found from a credible source. Sorry for my reaction to you inadvertently picking an old scab.

[csaper58]

[QUOTE=Katy Watts;8916434]
Yes, I’ve owned 2 of these horses, mother and daughter. I spent a lot of time collecting and reading all the science on laminitis to help my own horses. I was fortunate that my research projects on sugar in grass attracted the attention of leading laminitis researchers and I got invited to lecture or present posters to a number of conferences devoted to laminitis. I had the opportunity to ask questions directly to researchers in the hallway and around lunch tables. I collaborated with several academics on articles and projects relating to laminitis and carbohydrates in grass and feed. I am proud to say I was the only non-veterinarian to be invited to the AAEP Laminitis Researcher Workshop in 2009. Here’s the poster I presented: http://safergrass.org/pdf/AAEPposter.pdf

Here is a partial list of conferences and lectures I was invited to: http://www.safergrass.org/pdf/listallclinics.pdf

As my own horses got sore feet when it got cold, I asked this of several highly regarded researchers. At first they didn’t even acknowledge that ‘cold weather laminitis’ existed, but after a few years they acknowledged it but could only theorize as to causation. Simon Bailey et al came closest to suggesting how it might be happening and I have already posted a link to his work. His work was all in vitro and I never found any research done on live horses with the condition. There’s no money.

These theories you posted have been thrown around by many, however there has been no clinical research on this done under scientific protocols or controls. The information source you cited is a US vet that retired 25 years ago and the only research she has done is on horses described by their owners in an internet chat room. She does not attend scientific conferences and has little credibility with academics. While she is a prolific writer, very little of it is published in peer reviewed scientific journals. My interactions with her have left me with an opinion that her adherence to scientific principles is lax in spite of speaking very authoritatively. I admit I find her an aggravating subject ever since she threw me out of her chat room for questioning her science and posting abstracts that contradicted her opinions. I will give her credit that she is one to suggest using jiaogulan for cold weather laminitis, and I do think it works on some horses, including mine, as far as one can say from an uncontrolled field trial where it is impossible to control all factors and benefits are only stated in subjective terms by overwrought owners desperate for even small improvements.

So yes, good questions, but no answers out there that I ever found from a credible source. Sorry for my reaction to you inadvertently picking an old scab.[/QUOTE]

Katy drops the mic and walks away.

But seriously is there anything we can do to encourage someone qualified to study this?

Write letters, set up a fund for research?

This [cold weather laminitis] seems to affect a lot of horses I know of.

[Katy_Watts]

[QUOTE=csaper58;8916841]

But seriously is there anything we can do to encourage someone qualified to study this?

Write letters, set up a fund for research?
.[/QUOTE]

It’s about money. Plenty of good researchers with all the resources inherent to universities with no money. Some of the best researchers have been shuffling jobs looking for a place with funding. It’s a shame that this conference used to happen every other year.
http://www.laminitisconference.com/laminitis.html

Last time it happened (2013)an organizer begged me to speak, without any new data, because ‘the academic’s have nothing’. There is just not enough money to answer many good questions.
Marketing takes the place of science when there is no funding. If we don’t fund basic science we end up with biased studies sponsored by people who sell stuff. And that goes for everything, not just in the horse world.

[Katy_Watts]

Evidence for my last assertion.
https://cvm.msu.edu/news/2014/ray-geor-to-head-college-of-sciences-at-massey-university-in-new-zealand

Note how many places this prestigious researcher has been and “In the face of some challenging economic circumstances,”

NZ has plenty of laminitis, so he won’t have trouble finding horses to study. Since they graze dairy cattle there, they also have a lot of laminitis in cows.
http://www.veehof.co.nz/articles/laminitis-the-biggest-cause-of-lameness/

[Mozart]

Super interesting discussion. We took on an elderly founder (coffin bone rotation in both fronts) pony about 3 years ago, she was lame when we got her in the fall, rehabbed her and then in January BOOM she could barely walk. She lived outside and that particular winter was extremely harsh with tons of snow. I would come out in the a.m. and find her down and it took 2 adults and a dressage whip to get her up. My vet insisted she stay outside so she could move around, problem was she did not move around, she lay down and stayed down all night in -30 Celsius temps.

I started bringing her in to the heated barn and by the next a.m. she would be moving fine, bright eyed and happy. Since that first winter she has been fine and has continued to live out since. I expect if this winter is extreme (as is being predicted) we may have the same situation.

[Incantation]

I have a gelding that had a very bad cold weather founder - 13 degrees in LF and 6 degrees in R. He was tested and found to be IR. X-rays are now normal, but in the winter, if the temps do not get above freezing during the day, he does not get his hooves trimmed. If he gets a trim during a cold snap, he has a relapse - bounding pulses and sore hooves. His laminae are that sensitive. He is in a run-in situation, so wrapping his legs doesn’t work well.

It was explained to me this way. In the cold the horses naturally decrease blood flow to the extremities. In an IR horse, blood flow to the hooves is already compromised, so they end up with too little circulation to the hoof.

[jingal]

Bumping up this thread. I have one of these horses now. Last year and this, he is sore from Christmas until weather warms again. Does anyone know of any current research or treatment? I’m booting, wrapping and blanketing him. He’s inside 24/7. Banamine helps but of course, that isn’t something I can do long term.

[JBD]

I use BOT standing wraps and a heat patch under socks (regular people socks). I think it helps.

[jingal]

JBD, thanks. What kind of heat patch and where do you put it?

[BTABBY]

I too have a pony that is battling this cold weather induced laminitis. She has Cushings, is on Prascend, Previcox for arthritis. Same diet for 2 years, no grass.

She started out with sensitive sole on the ice, it turned into that laminitis walk and stance, no heat, no bounding pulse, no white line separation, no bruising of sole. It came on slowly 6 weeks, then she was down 90 % of the time for 2 weeks really cold weather – 30c or colder, now up more 50% of the time, -15c, eats hay, but was off cubes when pain was high. Came across this article, https://drkhorsesense.wordpress.com/2017/12/17/cold-induced-laminitis . I cannot find any real treatment plan, so pony has on hoof boots ,BOT wraps, double blankets, belly band. She is in with other horse so they keep her moving some. I have ordered the herb Jiaogulan.

I did have blood work done and she is deficient in Cobalt & Manganese, everything else is normal. Vet is stumped on this as she is on a mineral supplement designed for our area.

Farrier does not think its true “laminitis” nor does pony’s therapist (acupuncture/osteo).

She did this Dec 2015 & Dec 2016 but previous bouts only lasted 2- 3 weeks.

[solarflight]

My pony mare foundered last winter after a weekend of extreme cold. We live in Canada, and had just had a 4 day stretch of lows in the -30’s. Nothing had changed for her: same bale of hay, no grass. The cold let up a bit on Monday, and by Tuesday she was lame. I hadn’t blanketed her last winter because she doesn’t need one, but this winter I’ve blanketed her and she’s been fine, even with the horrible winter we’ve been having.
I researched last winter after the episode and found a really good article explaining how when a horse gets cold, the blood flow to the extremities is limited to keep their body warm, which can cause founder. Just like others mentioned, the article suggested blanketing and wrapping legs to keep them as warm as possible.

[jingal]

I haven’t been able to find any treatments and it seems this condition is just now being recognized here. My vet said they have two broodmares in their clinic with the same symptoms. He is the one who saw my horse last year when this started and thought he had bruised soles. So evidently, he wasn’t aware of or didn’t recognize this either. I’m hopeful that next year, I’ll catch it before it starts and the blanketing, wrapping and booting will head it off. And I’m going to try a product made by Auburn Labs called APF. It’s very expensive, so I’ll wait until December to start it.

I was happy to see Katy Watts had confirmed the condition does exist. Katy is way ahead when it comes to understanding laminitis, and in feeding to avoid it.

BTABBY, I’d be interested to hear if the jiaogulan helps your pony.

[2Below]

I’ll ditto greyarab’s recommendation to check out https://www.ecirhorse.org/
My IR pony had a bout of laminitis last year triggered by Lyme disease. This year when temps dropped consistently below zero she showed signs of cold weather laminitis. I’ve kept her in Soft-Ride boots 24/7 for about a month and standing wraps for most of that time as well. Now that she’s comfortable again I take her for hand walks up and down the driveway for some easy exercise.

[Jungle_Monkey]

How are the horses iron levels?