Collie with GI Issues - vets are stumped. Any/all suggestions needed.

[In1]

1 year, 4 month old altered rough coated male collie. Issues have been on and off for months. Had him at the vet in April –negative fecal- vet suggested I continue with food allergy search – and then try the Pancur. Vet did not think it was worms given that Collie was in good weight, good quality coat, etc.

Continued to struggle with Collie being fine for a few weeks, then having episodes of intermittent soft stool. Would have fine stools in the AM/PM but urge incontinence during the day with very greasy/oily stools during the day. No loss of appetite, loss of thirst, or lack of energy.

Another negative fecal in July.

Tried the Panacur with dramatic results – almost immediate (less than 1.5 minutes) projectile vomiting (3x) and diarrhea approximately an hour later. Vomit was the consistency of diarrhea, brown colored, and foul smelling.

Pulled blood Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency – results were negative, which is disappointing since the symptoms fit so well. Vet also gave Metronidazole prescription but I have not given it - because it is a known toxin to MDRI positive dogs.

Suggestions? Vet suggested I try just general probiotics - but I have tried 3 different brands in the past with no success. I am not impressed with this vets reaction - especially after he prescribed the Metronidazole. This is the third vet in the area I have tried - and all claim to have experience with collies but have not known about the drug sensitivity, or told me it was a non-issue. I really need some suggestions or guidance.

My carpets are totalled - and even though Collie does not act like he is feeling unwell, his body says otherwise.

[LauraKY]

Start with testing the dog for MDR1 sensitivy. Then you know if the metronidazole is safe to give.

Hookworms can be really, really hard to find in a fecal. My hound had 4 fecals before hookworms showed up.

All of my collies have had sensitive tummies when young. My new one is now on Wellness Simple and doing really well. My previous collie ended up on veterinary sensitive stomach dog food for a year or so. Have you tried rice and chicken for a week or two, followed by a slow change to kibble? I’d stick with a lower fat kibble for the time being too.

[Simkie]

What are you feeding?

[SquishTheBunny]

Have you had an abdominal ultrasound or GI scope done? IBD and lymphoma can often have these symptoms.

[Claddagh]

I have a suggestion that may work. This is what my vet suggested for our Australian Shepherd when she had issues very similar to what your Collie is experiencing. And this was after we’d done all the testing, worming etc. like you’ve done.

This vet was the best I’ve ever had (unfortunately now retired). She looked at me one day and said “now don’t think I’ve gone over the edge, but I’d like to try a very high fiber diet”. And yup, I thought she’d lost it - just what a dog with diarrhea needs - FIBER! But I trusted her and she’d done her research to try any find a solution to this problem. So we tried it - and it worked 100%. No more soft stools or diarrhea - for many, many years. It was totally contrary to what we would have thought but that fiber was what turned my dog around.

Maybe the sensitive GI system is something with the Collie / Australian Shepherd, since the breeds are related. I don’t know but I remember how frustrating it was when nothing we’d tested for or tried seemed to work - until the last resort so-to-speak, high fiber diet.

It might be worth a try for your guy. And if it doesn’t “turn him around”, it won’t hurt him either (not like pumping unnecessary drugs into him). Just a thought.

[Chief2]

Two things to add:
My brother’s collie has such a sensitive stomach that he cooks for her. She can have pasta, rice, chicken, meatballs, vegetables, etc. She gets sick on dry or canned foods.

Also, my mother’s Lhasa Apso had the same stool issue the OP’s dog has. The vet prescribed Benefiber added to the food daily. Worked great. Get to dosage from you vet.

[Chall]

High fiber was recommended for my cat with pancreatitis, which is another digestive disorder.

(i’ve had a hard time finding a canned food like that for cats, that doesn’t have a lot of grain. Surprisingly my other cat loves vegetables, tomato paste and squash soup - if they are organic :lol: )

[Ghazzu]

How did you go about attempting to rule out dietary sensitivity?

[In_The_Gate]

It does sound like further tests are warranted. An ultrasound would be a good starting point to look and see what’s going on internally.

In case you’re interested - Washington State University publishes a list of drugs that can cause problems for dogs with the MDR1 mutation. (I had a patient with the mutation recently and this went at the front of her chart!) Metronidazole isn’t on their list but it does have the potential to cause neurological toxicity in any dog at very high does or in dogs with liver dysfunction even at normal doses.

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-vcpl/drugs.aspx

[tallyho392]

how about acidolpholous?..may not be spelled correctly…
it is capsules of the “active” good bacterias that belong in the gut…can get it at any good health food store, the kind with FOOD, not just chemical suppliments…

and the fiber works because it retains the moisture while in the colon…sorta like eating peat moss pellets…just sounds contraindicated because all we ever hear about through the media is fiber for ease of elimination…
i did the acidopholous for my mother,when her intestines goet fried from radiation treatments…it can’t hurt, and did a world of good for my mother…unless, of course, it is problem with collies sensitivity…

i have a blue merle smooth coat collie, so i feel for you about the clueless vets

[jetsmom]

ditto the testing for MDR1.
Try feeding a grain free alternative protein food. I feed Taste of teh Wild high Prairie, to all 3 of mine, 2 that have allergies and both have been fine for years now.
I know some people don’t trust foods made by diamond, but I’ve never had a problem with TOTW.
Adding a couple tablespoons of pure canned pumpkin can help solidify poops by adding fiber. Dogs seem to love the pumpkin. You can freeze it in ice cube trays and take out a couple of cubes to thaw before feeding. Lasts a long time that way and easy to do. especially if you are in an area where they only have canned pumpkin available at holiday time (Thanksgiving/Xmas).

[Horsegal984]

Where did you get your info on metronidazole? I thin the reason none of the vets “know” about metro is because it is not one of the drugs that is a concern. It really is a non issue, because MDR1 dogs are at no higher risk than any other dog for having a reaction to it.

Did you send out a TAMU GI panel fasted or just run a single test for pancreatic insufficiency? Have you tried B12 injections? You can have a phone consult with UCDavis about diet and what to try feeding next. Have you asked about a referral to an internal medicine specialist for more diagnostics?

Vet hopping while trying to address a chronic problem and then not following the reccomendations isn’t going to get you anywhere. Just saying

[In1]

Wow! Thank you all for taking the time to reply. Direction questions and additional information below…

-Collie cannot do rice. It goes straight through him - his clearest food sensitivity. He does tolerate straight chicken (canned) well, although I’ve never had him on just that for a month or longer, which is necessary due to his cyclic/irregular issues.

-Haven’t had a GI Scope or ultrasound - seems like that might be the next approach.

-This is my third vet in the area. I gave him an orange sheet of paper with all the “no-way” medications listed at my first visit. sigh

-Right now he is getting 1 sweet potato and 1 cup of Wellness’ “Simple Turkey Formula” twice a day - with a scoop of Dr. Kruger’s Everyday Health Formula. Even with this his stool is soft/greasy and he has accidents.

-Prior foods: Blue Buffalo Wilderness Chicken, Natural Balance Limited Ingredient Sweet Potoato and Chicken, Canidae Pure Land, Wellness Core, and a few others. Collie does fine for a month or two or three - and then has issues.

A few things I can immediately tell you with which he does not do well:
-Fish oil capsuls, Crill oil capsuls
-Vitamin supplements/joint supplements (probably indicates a packer/filler material sensitivity)
-Brown rice

I, with my limited knowledge, do not believe this is a straight up food intolerance issue. If it was, how could he tolerate the foods for so long and then BAM have a blow up? The foods I have listed above are triggers- but I question if they aren’t a seperate issue - as the problem still exists once they are fully removed.

Given how young Collie is and his level of activity/energy (HIGH) I am surprised by how well he holds his weight.

Switching to another vet because the vet fails to address my concerns and/or is not educated on problems directedly related to my dog is not a problem in my book. If I cannot trust the vet to know which drugs are/are not safe for my dog then they are not going to be able to provide appropriate care. If the only recomendation the vets could give was to try a known neurotoxin, I’m not going to fault myself for not following.

My information regarding Metrodinazole comes directly from the collie rescue, a collie breeder - and Googling. Here are a few links: http://www.karibunicollies.com/home/mdr1
http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/heart_worm_prevention_alert.htm

PS - Hey Chall - Have you tried “Before Grain” cat food? There is another brand (the one I use) but I cannot remember the name right now. Will post it for you later.

[kasjordan]

This is going to sound really stupid- but when we put our dogs on our deck- we figured out (after who knows HOW many issues like you’ve been thru!) my German Shepherd licks the propane tank on our grill and the underside of our grill. That grease makes him explosive. Is there anything like that your collie might come into contact with once in awhile?
Also, if the GSD gets even half a cup more food than he should- he gets explosive.
Good luck!

[RaeHughes]

High fibre?? Have you tried giving him porridge? It is a quick and easy way to get fibre in (and my border collies absolutely love them bowls of porridge when they get it). Also an easy (?) way of adding liver and beef (if possible) into his diet. Dont need a lot to help and the porridge sort of acts as a buffer if you see what I mean?

One thing I have noticed is that collies can have very sensitive tummies especially when they are younger - a friend’s 2 young collies would make a mess in their kennels every day until they went onto a rice-based kibble with porridge. Both dogs looked really “healthy” and certainly had that renowned BC energy but looked pitifully thin - she was embarrased. 4 weeks on a rice-based diet and they were … well certainly recovering well - ETA: Just noted your reply saying that this is out.

I have also found that some vets like to make a positive/negative statement rather than recognising that there is a continuum - your dog may just be in the negative range but be positive for him. I would certainly treat as for him being positive.

[SquishTheBunny]

Instead of vet hopping, ask one to give you a referral to an internist. Absolutley bring up your concerns, and they will be the best ones to give you an educated straight answer on what the logical diagnostic steps may be. Also, please dont go in with “dr. google or breeder says this” because to be honest, there is a lot of out of date information floating around. Bring a list of questions, and if you have the money to persue diagnostics, you will likely have a long list of answers. Be prepared to spend some $$, but it will at least give you rule outs instead of just starting dog on symptomatic treatments like metronidazole. Good luck with your pooch!!

Also, please becareful of what you read on the internet. The greatdanelady link is so poorly written, and completely absurd.

“These dogs have a sensitivity to Ivermectin (Heartguard Heartworm medication. Only use Interceptor heart worm preventative. Other related drugs you can not use on these breeds or there will be neurological damage.
Other related drugs you can NOT use:
Metronidazole (which is used for diarrhea and giardia)
Flagyl
Torbutol
Butorphanol
Morphine
Acepromazine
Ivermectin - Heart Guard”

First of all, her statement that “there will be neurological damage” is rediculous.

Torb and Ace are commonly used as pre-anesthetic agents for many surgeries incuding spay/neuters and dentals. I have never known a Collie or MDR1 dog to have " neurologic" effects from either drug. The dose ranges are so wide with these medications (ie. ace for example 0.01 - 0.2mg/kg IV), regardless of breed you always try to go with the lowest dose to achieve your goals.

Metronidazole and Flagyl are the same drug. Torbitrol and Butorphanol are the same drug.

There are several other heartworm medications that do not have Ivermectin, not just interceptor.

[LauraKY]

Here’s the link to problem medications for dogs with the MDR1 sensitivity from Washington State University. According to their research, 70% of collies have the sensitivity.

Here’s the link for testing your dog.

The most commonly affected breeds are: Australian Shepherd, Australian Shepherd (Mini), Collie, Long-haired Whippet, McNab, Silken Windhound

[IFG]

My dog has Addison’s, which often has gastric manifestations. Two things that we use are Prozyme ( digestive enzymes) and Probios (just the same as the horse probiotics). They work for dogs with sensitive stomachs too.

[Marshfield]

I would suggest having the Idexx fecal diarrhea pcr panel done. It is pricey but has Provence invaluable when I am trying to help dogs such as yours.