I think that it would be a bigger asset to a color breeder if the stallion was cremello. That way you are guaranteed buckskin or palomino without the chance of smokey black. If I bred to a palomino in hopes of getting color, I would be way more disappointed with a chestnut foal than a black IMO.
[QUOTE=rideagoldenpony;6052172]
Smoke Tree Silver Dragon is/was palomino. :)[/QUOTE]
Is! He is still alive and breeding! 
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[QUOTE=ShannonD;6051889]
Because you can’t see the dilution on a black horse. Well, at least A smoky black horse can easily be mistaken for just a regular ol’ black horse. ![/QUOTE]
Black + creme gene = chocolate
At least in my breed it is that way. Rocky Mt.
Breed a black to a choco (has a 1 or 2 silver dapple genes) and if the silver dapple is passed, you get a choco.
Just because a horse is homoz, there is the other side of the coin, which means the other non-homoz (or homoz for some other color) may not allow the modifying color to be passed to the offspring.
I have a black mare. Love black. Love it. Can breed her to any color stallion. If she was choco, it is safer to breed to a non-choco to avoid ASD for the resulting foal.
[QUOTE=smokygirl;6052308]
a cremello can’t guarantee a buckskin or palomino unless he is AA. to get a guaranteed palomino or buckskin, you need the agouti.[/QUOTE]
my post was in reference to the original post about the value for a palomino to be AA. I would think that it would be more of a value to a “color” breeder if it were a cremello stallion that had was AA. That way you can’t end up with a chestnut or smokey black foal.
Exactly! I’ve met many people who couldn’t care less to have a smoky black foal for that reason. But I have met several people who would die for a smoky black foal! 
I’ve had two of them, and while the first one was kinda neat, I would much rather have palomino or buckskin…as you can actually see the cream dilution.
My thoughts were, if you had a Mare Owner that was hoping for a buckskin or a palomino, then a palomino stallion who is homozygous agouti might be more appealing to that person (leaving the double dilute stallions out of this scenario, as people tend to either love them or hate them, and of course dependent on the mare color as well).
Anyways, I got my question answered. To “some” Mare Owners, a homozygous agouti single dilute stallion would be appealing.
Then I would bet he is homozygous agouti. But you’d only know for sure if you got him tested. Animal Genetics in Florida just charges $25 US for color testing.
Hi Sandy, grey is a completely different gene…so separate from what we are talking about. Grey is considered a color modifier, not an actual color itself…so first a horse is born it’s “base color” or it’s actual coat color (chestnut, bay, black, palomino, buckskin, smoky black, cremello, perlino or smoky cream) and THEN the grey gene effects the coat after that. Hope that makes more sense!
If the grey mare you are talking about is homozygous for grey, which means she will always produce grey no matter what…it doesn’t matter what color the stallion is or whether he is grey or not, agouti or not, etc…she will always produce grey foals. Their true coat color will obviously be underneath the grey and the grey gene will just “modify” what the end result will look like. If the mare is heterozygous grey, it means her foals have a 50% chance of being grey.
So, it would be possible then to have a palomino stallion who turns grey and is also homozygous for agouti. It would mean that his foals have a 50% chance of getting the cream gene (only palomino or buckskin from him)and also a 50% chance of turning grey. Again, a lot depends on the color of the mare as well…I’m only talking about the genes the stallion could potential give to the foal.
Well, yes, they can Not all blacks stay black at all times of the year. A smoky black can very easily look like, and be darker than, a regular black who has faded a bit
This girl looks very, very black
This one easily looks like my black horse with a bit of early Summer sun fading
Whte Magic, being cremello, can NEVER produce a bay. He always has to produce a dilute colour when bred to non dilute mares
He can never be responsible for the black-based part of a bay, but unless you are also saying he is aa (which has nothing to do with being cremello) he could absolutely be responsible for the bay part of a bay
Black is still black, black + cream is still smoky black. The “chocolate” is from the Silver gene which is entirely separate.
Just because a horse is homoz, there is the other side of the coin, which means the other non-homoz (or homoz for some other color) may not allow the modifying color to be passed to the offspring.
Homozygous gets passed, period. Whether it can be expressed then depends on what else is going on. AA is homozygous for bay, but if the horse ends up ee (red-based, then the bay is not expressed, though certainly was passed on
I breed dilutes and would “prefer” to NOT have a smokey black. However, it would not be the end of the world if I did but I do prefer my dilutes to look like a dilute and love the golden color.
Of the 3 dilute mares I currently have:
First one is homozygous agouti and she is in foal to Freestyle and will only produce a bay or buckskin foal since he is homozygous black.
The second is not bred but she is homozygous black and heterozygous agouti so I will try NOT to breed her to a true black stallion unless I found one I just HAD to cross with her, she will be bred to either bay or a chestnut stallion in the future. Since she is homozygous black she will never have a palomino or chestnut foal but hopefully some really nice bay and buckskin ones
The 3rd mare is heterozygous both agouti and black. I did breed her to Freestyle knowing I had the chance of a black/smokey black foal but was really happy when I got a lovely buckskin filly. She is currently in foal to Sandakan who is a really dark bay but I have no idea his color status. So with her 2012 foal the color possibilities are bay, buckskin, black, smokey black, chestnut and palomino. So will be interesting to see what “pops” out in 5 months!
So all being said I do “try” to avoid producing smokey black if possible and if I was in love with 2 different dilute stallions and one was AA and one was Aa I would go with the AA one.
I am often asked which of my cremello stallions are homozygous Agouti (it is the same game as with a Palomino just the guarantee of dilution at 100%) as most people do not want a Smoky Black. I had 4 smoky blacks already but sold all of them on as I do prefer the real outlook of Palomino and Buckskin. It is already difficult to get a nice golden or cream colored Buckskin instead of a dark bay or brown looking one. That is not what people desire when they strive for a dilute. Most want the golden tones of Palomino and Buckskin.
So I had my DD stallions tested. Weissgold and Milky Way are AA and Mascarpone’s Erbe is Aa. The Alchemist was also Aa. The Smoky Cream from TCF can only be Ee aa so he can produce Smoky Black, Buckskin and Palomino depending on the mares bred to him. We do also have two Perlino Oldenburg stallions which I have not tested yet. Doing this only once they are approved.
here is the most recent picture of that one
http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/3vua-hq-85fc-jpg.html
If I bred to a dilute stallion, all other things being equal, it would matter to me if there was a chance of a smokey black or not. I love the buckskin and palomino colors and would be quite disappointed if I got a black foal. Don’t get me wrong, I love black foals, have a black mare now, but the only reason why I’d probably pick a dilute stallion in the first place (assuming he also met my requirements for any stallion) would be for that chance of having a palomino or buckskin foal.
Thank-you! This is my thinking and why I think it could theoretically increase this particular stallion’s value. If there are already a ton of stallions within this particular breed to compete with for breedings, and he is one of the few palominos within the breed, realistically, a Mare Owner would likely be chosing him over other stallions in hopes of getting a dilute foal. (for arguments sake, lets say all of the other stallions traits are equal to his) And as others have mentioned, if those Mare Owners want the look of a dilute foal, smoky black may not be their first choice…so if that option could be removed (at the stallion end of things), then it gives a better guarantee of a buckskin or palomino foal that the Mare Owner can show off! (again, of course, excluding the mares color DNA on the above thought process)
[QUOTE=columbus;6051822]
The palomino would be Cr cr (heterozygous creme modifier). One Creme gene and one not creme gene.
They are also the color red (homozygous chestnut). e e
Then the chestnut color is modified by creme gene to palomino
If they had a black gene E E, or E e they would be buckskin or black creme depending on the Agouti gene.
Agouti is irrelevant for palomino as there is no Black gene to modify. They can be A A, or A a or a a. A is dominant for black markings and a is recessive for solid black
So a palomino always has no black gene ee, A or a irelevent, Crcr[/QUOTE]
Yes, but can they not CARRY an Agouti gene? Not sure I understand you - Animal Genetics USA will ask if a palomino horse is known to carry aa, Aa or AA.
http://www.animalgenetics.us/CCalculator2.asp
If it is irrelevant, why would they ask?
If I was breeding for a dilute, with all other things being equal, then yes, knowing a stallion is AA would be a huge benefit for me.
Of all the single dilute colors, buckskin is by far my favorite. Oddly, not really a fan of palomino, and I would be utterly disappointed in a smokey black because I hate the black color anyway. I’d much rather get a plain chestnut or bay, then a smokey black (or even a palomino, makes sense right. :winkgrin:) The ideal dilute stallion for me would be CrCr EE AA, then I’d wouldn’t have to worry at all. :lol:
OTOH, if someone prefers smokey blacks, it is still a benefit for those breeders because then they know that the stallion is not for them. So then you won’t have disappointed mare owners.
ETA: Coming from someone who, if I ever do breed, would be for a personal horse and not for resale.
That is JUST your mare Donna. Cream can trickle down through smoky black horses for generations and nobody will notice until one of them produces a buckskin or palomino out of a non dilute mare. That happens all the time.
Just like buckskins and palominos can vary, so can smoky blacks. A smoky black can look as different as Nightlight or as normal as a regular black horse. If they all looked like Nightlight, this thread probably wouldn’t have even been started. If all smoky blacks clearly looked dilute like her, people would mind a LOT less if they got a smoky black instead of the buckskin or palomino they were hoping for. :yes:
Whte Magic, being cremello, can NEVER produce a bay. He always has to produce a dilute colour when bred to non dilute mares
Flub on my part. You knew very well what I was trying to say though.
[QUOTE=rmh_rider;6052312]Black + creme gene = chocolate
At least in my breed it is that way. Rocky Mt.
[/QUOTE]
I think you’ve confused cream with silver
[QUOTE=JB;6052478]
He can never be responsible for the black-based part of a bay, but unless you are also saying he is aa (which has nothing to do with being cremello) he could absolutely be responsible for the bay part of a bay :)[/QUOTE]
J, she was referring to me saying that he would never produce a bay or a buckskin out of a black mare…He’s cremello, so of course he can’t produce a bay
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