Color breeders - would this make a stallion more valuable to you?

[Daventry]

I am asking a hypothetical question to the color breeders out there. Let’s say you had a palomino stallion and his color is rare for his breed (not frowned upon, just a rare color), and he has also been DNA tested homozygous agouti, would that make the stallion more sought after or increase his value than if he was just a palomino with heterozygous agouti?

For those that aren’t great with their color genetics, a palomino stallion who is homozygous agouti means he would never be able to produce black or smoky black foals…if I am to understand it correctly. So, his foals could only ever be palomino, buckskin, chestnut or bay…obviously, the exact color would depend on the color of the mare.

[rideagoldenpony]

I suspect that Mardi cannot produce a black foal… have not tested him, but in 140ish foals, there’s never been a black one. One of his sons that I color tested (could not figure out WHAT in the world color he was) came back that he could not produce black or smokey black.

I’m not a color breeder by ANY stretch of the imagination, but I do find color genetics extremely interesting!!!

[columbus]

The palomino would be Cr cr (heterozygous creme modifier). One Creme gene and one not creme gene.
They are also the color red (homozygous chestnut). e e
Then the chestnut color is modified by creme gene to palomino

If they had a black gene E E, or E e they would be buckskin or black creme depending on the Agouti gene.

Agouti is irrelevant for palomino as there is no Black gene to modify. They can be A A, or A a or a a. A is dominant for black markings and a is recessive for solid black

So a palomino always has no black gene ee, A or a irelevent, Crcr

[rideagoldenpony]

I have seen a number of black foals over the years sired by various palomino stallions – but have never seen one sired by my own palomino stallion – out of every color of mare.

ARE there palominos that can’t produce black? There are, right?

[columbus]

So the agouti gene inherited by this horse are there but they are not expressed.

As to value. Certainly some of us love the color palomino. The issue breeding to palomino is that the palomino only has one Cr gene to inherit and there is a 50% chance of NOT inheriting the Cr gene.

There are many breeds where chestnut is undesirable and they(bays, buckskins, blacks etc.) are often advertised as being negative for the red (e) gene. You might also see a horse refered to as a black carrier (a) be they bay or chestnut. You can have a palomino or chestnut that is a black carrier but you will find that by genetic testing or perhaps knowing the parentage and offsprings colors(the old fashioned way).
PatO

[crosscreeksh]

Just curious…why wouldn’t anyone want a black baby?? That’s always been our best seller!!

[ShannonD]

Because you can’t see the dilution on a black horse. Well, at least A smoky black horse can easily be mistaken for just a regular ol’ black horse. Many stallion owners advertise their homozygous Agouti horses as such. SBR Formula One and RFF Starbuck are double dilute stock horses who do, for example. Breed any non dilute, non grey mare to RFF Starbuck, and you will get buckskin or dunskin every time.

Personally, it would be more beneficial to ME to know the stallion was AA, not AAt or AtAt. Smoky browns look nearly identical to a regular brown, with more golden undertones. I’d rather have a smoky black than a smoky brown!

The TB stallion White Magic is CrCr ee aa, so he will never throw a buckskin or a bay out of a black mare. I think that is unique in itself. His smoky black Anglo-Arab filly is to die for!

[Equine_Reproduction]

Color genetics make me dizzy <LOL>…and Shannon, your understanding of alphabet soup is truly amazing :). Carry on. I “am” reading for content here!

[rideagoldenpony]

[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;6051886]
Just curious…why wouldn’t anyone want a black baby?? That’s always been our best seller!![/QUOTE]

I can’t answer that – because I’d love one! Or four. LOL

[Rhyadawn]

[QUOTE=rideagoldenpony;6051826]
I have seen a number of black foals over the years sired by various palomino stallions – but have never seen one sired by my own palomino stallion – out of every color of mare.

ARE there palominos that can’t produce black? There are, right?[/QUOTE]

Since the palomino stallion himself has no E gene (only two e) he himself is not passing on an E, however provided he doesn’t pass on the A gene the foal could be black (or smokey).

140 foals, no black yet… might be a safe guess that he is homozygous for agouti.

[Sheila_A]

I am not sure that the value of a palomino stallion would change for me if he was AA vs. Aa, but if I was trying to decide between breeding to two dilute stallions and one was AA and the other was Aa and I really could not decide between the two based on non-color attributes I would go with the AA if I had a mare that could produce black. My personal opinion is that I do not care for smokey black so I would prefer not to take the chance of producing one. I love black, but I have seen some smokey blacks that are a sun-bleached looking color and I do not care for that. I know people who love them, it is a matter of personal preference.

I have a buckskin mare that is Aa and I will be conscious of that fact when it comes time to breed her. I would not breed her to a black stallion unless there was something really special about him.

[Sugarbrook]

Its ME asking…because I have no clue…BUT…if this stallion in question was bred to a gray you mean it would never have a chance of having a gray foal? Just askin’

[Sheila_A]

Sugarbrook, you would have either a 50% chance or a 100% chance of getting a gray depending on the heterozygous/homozygous status of the gray. Gray trumps dilute.

[Mel0309]

I am not sure if this mare is black or smokey black but she is by the welsh stallion Smoke Tree Silver Dragon. Her granddam is the same color as her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aQEwjZJn-Y

Her pedigree:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&h=DRAGONS+LAIR+SERENDIPITY

[JB]

For ME, if I had a choice between a pali AA stallion and Aa, all else equal, I’d choose the Aa stallion because I WOULD want a chance at a smoky black, because I would like the chance of breeding that foal again if it’s a filly and would love to have my own 50/50 shot at a dilute. But also, I simply like black, and would love a chance at a black foal.

I’m sure there are some people who reallyreally don’t want black, and the AA pali would appeal to them over another equally suitable stallion offering a chance at black. I do suspect that population is lower than, say, those who want black, or don’t want chestnut.

[smokygirl]

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[smokygirl]

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[rideagoldenpony]

[QUOTE=smokygirl;6052129]
I’d guess she’s black. Not any dilutes that I can see in her pedigree, though grey could cover that up.[/QUOTE]

Smoke Tree Silver Dragon is/was palomino.

[smokygirl]

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[TrueColours]

A smoky black horse can easily be mistaken for just a regular ol’ black horse.

Oh no they cant … not if you line them up side by side … :lol: … the difference is striking between the 2.

For me - my cremello stallion DOES produce smoky black and I am very very happy that he does, because there are many Mare Owners that are crossing their fingers that a smoky black is exactly what they are going to get. Especially if down the road they will then breed that smoky black foal to a smoky black or black stallion/mare and try and solidify the “black” gene in their breeding program. If all I EVER produced was smoky blacks in my breeding program, I would be one VERY happy breeder indeed!

The Guaranteed Gold (cremello) / Pearlescent (Perlino) cross produced a smoky cream colt last year (the double dilute of the black gene). HE is going to be extremely interesting to watch in future years to see what he produces in the colour department …

The TB stallion White Magic is CrCr ee aa, so he will never throw a buckskin or a bay out of a black mare.

Whte Magic, being cremello, can NEVER produce a bay. He always has to produce a dilute colour when bred to non dilute mares