Color Enthusiast ~ Liver Chestnut: The "gateway for color"?

[Go_Fish]

My Dad’s best cutting mare was a liver with tons of bling. She had a nearly flaxen mane - normal dark brown tail. No grays in her pedigree at all. Her sire was a reddish/brown chestnut with bling and her mother was a brown (dark bay) - no bling. My Dad bred that mare to various stallions (bays to chestnuts) over the years and every one of her foals were liver with bling. I’m not a color expert by any means, but even the one time she was bred to a paint, she produced a liver and white foal.

They were all a pain to keep clean. :lol:

[KSAQHA]

[QUOTE=back ![](n the saddle;5423500]
Are you sure that’s not liver? I’d be tempted to call that liver based on this picture. It’s definitely dark chestnut.

Here’s my liver mare who is 7 months in foal to the brown stallion Stedinger: This mare is also a seasonal brindle. Her summer coat will come in with tiger stripes complete with different hair length in the stripe. I’ve read a theory pertaining to the sooty gene being responsible for some types of brindling.
[IMG]http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad198/HorseFeathersFarm/59ecb211.jpg)[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, that photo has her in the shade…she’s definitely more red than liver. Here’s another pic of her with her dam, late summer of '09 for comparison
…alas, still in the shade.
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa243/caburke/GidgetSass8-08.jpg?t=1297534416

I think the dam had some sooty going on, too, as she had obvious brindling on the legs. As the daughter gets older, her legs seem to be brindling, as well.

[Donella]

I am with VB. It is my all time favourite color. What to know something strange? Usually when I find one and inquire about breeding, more often than not, one parent has been grey. No science here, just an observation

That’s interesting. My all time fav color is also liver. Interestingly when we bred our grey mare (black base) to Sir Donnerhall (dark bay) we got a solid liver chestnut filly (probably from the Donnerhall).

It also seems to me that the liver chestnuts I notice are from liver chestnut sires and out of dark/black/bay mares.

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=TaliaCristianna;5422078]
When a red based foal inherits the gray gene it almost always darkens the base color a tremendous amount before lightening it up to white.

Some “liver chestnuts” by gray parents might actually BE gray. Perhaps just a very slow graying gray. [/QUOTE]

This is true of palomino’s going gray…they sometimes go through some very funky changes in the process and often get very much darker before going to the gray/white coloring. Suspect this is a function of the gray gene rather than the chestnut.

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=Donella;5423710]

That’s interesting. My all time fav color is also liver. Interestingly when we bred our grey mare (black base) to Sir Donnerhall (dark bay) we got a solid liver chestnut filly (probably from the Donnerhall).

It also seems to me that the liver chestnuts I notice are from liver chestnut sires and out of dark/black/bay mares.[/QUOTE]

Gray is actually a dominant modifier and not a color in and of itself. Your black based gray mare had to have been heterozygous for the black (so carried a red gene) as well as hetero for gray. She was bred to a bay that also had to be hetero for black and you got the one in four chance of a foal with two red genes and then got the 50% chance of that foal being non-gray…so the chances of getting that color from those two horses was actually one in eight. Since the stallion was a dark bay the chances are good that he had sooty or smutty gene(s) as well and it is thought that the liver chestnut may well be the effect of this on a “regular” chestnut. So in that sense your liver chestnut was due to the stallion (on two counts…passing the red he carried and maybe passing sooty or smutty genetics as well).

[VirginiaBred]

Really interesting and makes me feel good that so many of us LOVE the elusive Liver Chestnut color!

[back_in_the_saddle]

Since the stallion was a dark bay the chances are good that he had sooty or smutty gene(s) as well and it is thought that the liver chestnut may well be the effect of this on a “regular” chestnut. So in that sense your liver chestnut was due to the stallion (on two counts…passing the red he carried and maybe passing sooty or smutty genetics as well).

Based on this theory, how did Donnerhall end up being liver? Obviously both parents were Ee and both passed the e’s to create ee. Why didn’t the sooty gene in his dam/sire affect the black?

I’m also HOPEFULLY buying another liver chestnut mare next week provided the vet check goes well. And she has bling. 3 whites blaze and white chin.

[Coffee]

[QUOTE=back in the saddle;5423253]

I’ve found that my liver mare fades to a blond color in the summer. A normal bright copper chestnut doesn’t fade, at least in my experience.[/QUOTE]

Any shade of chesnut can fade. I had a chesnut TB gelding that would fade almost to blond too.

OTOH, I think there’s a non-fading gene that works on any color. I’ve seen a number of chesnuts (including my neighbor’s) that never fade.

[JB]

@coloredcowhorse;5423741

This is true of palomino’s going gray…they sometimes go through some very funky changes in the process and often get very much darker before going to the gray/white coloring. Suspect this is a function of the gray gene rather than the chestnut.

Yes, it is a function of the gray gene, as it can happen to black-based colors as well. But I do think the ee factor is playing a role too. It’s so much more common for red-based colors to have the first foal shed (especially) be REALLY dark. Not that bays/browns don’t do that too, but it seems to be so much more prevalent in chestnuts and palominos.

[quote=back in the saddle;5423829]Based on this theory, how did Donnerhall end up being liver? Obviously both parents were Ee and both passed the e’s to create ee. Why didn’t the sooty gene in his dam/sire affect the black?

[/quote]

How is sooty going to visibly affect black?

[columbus]

false identification

There are many colors that have hidden in liver chestnut over time. There are also many people who thought they had something but all they had was a liver shestnut. Some people have selected livers when they hoped for something flashy. There are breeders who essentially bred flaxen or liver chestnuts because it was the closest they could get to dilutes. There have been a few breeders of liver chestnuts in Arabians and they had gotten to nearly white manes and golden bodies in many generations. I think too that some palomino breeders deliberately chose livers thinking they would throw palominos with white manes and deeper bodies when crossed on dilutes. Palominos have hidden as liver chestnuts, the silver dapples have as well, wild bays, in Irish Draughts we have a black sabino who looks like a very dark liver chestnut. It is a sneaky color. PatO

[Dressage_Diva333]

I’m another sucker for liver chestnuts

I would love some input on my little man. I need to have him tested. I thought he was chestnut when I bought him, but looks like he’s going to end up liver, and he has a lot of silver in his mane. Not sure if this is typical of livers or not.

Here are some photos (from youngest to oldest. Sire is *Wedderlie Mardi Gras- Palomino):

With momma (Gretchen’s lovely *Russetwood Romance )
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1341013&l=c6fd6a6d27&id=1460861447

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1612693&l=274b1b0835&id=1460861447

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1640571&l=fefebc8ba4&id=1460861447

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1913670&l=0b214a5cf8&id=1460861447

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1913679&l=57902dfa39&id=1460861447

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1913684&l=049747bd8e&id=1460861447

Regular? Liver?

I am very anxious for him to shed out. There seems to be more silver in his mane as he ages, and his tail is pretty flaxen, but you can find some of the silver color in there too.

[TaliaCristianna]

[QUOTE=coloredcowhorse;5423741]
This is true of palomino’s going gray…they sometimes go through some very funky changes in the process and often get very much darker before going to the gray/white coloring. Suspect this is a function of the gray gene rather than the chestnut.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I actually owned a palomino/gray stallion. He didn’t darken all over like some of them do though. He darkened mostly on his hindquarters and lower legs to a really mealy liver chestnut before he went white.

There is a palomino/gray stallion here in Iowa that nearly darkened to black before he went gray. Unfortunately I can’t remember his website or I would post pics!

[JB]

@Dressage_Diva333;5424750

I would love some input on my little man. I need to have him tested. I thought he was chestnut when I bought him, but looks like he’s going to end up liver, and he has a lot of silver in his mane. Not sure if this is typical of livers or not.

As I mentioned earlier, chestnuts and palominos tend to shed very very dark their first shed or three, and it can take a couple of years before they settle on their real shade.

Your boy us red-based, no questions there, so there’s no use testing, as you cannot genetically differentiate between chestnut and liver.

His “silver” is flaxen, but it may or may not be baby flaxen that disappears later. It may BE true flaxen, and still darken as he gets older, but if true flaxen, will likely still stay lighter than his body.

[TWF]

I’m with VB & DD. I love Liver!!
Can’t Act one of my foundations mares. She was a very deep sabino liver produced more than a few liver chestnuts! Her daughter Kyrie 'd Triomphe is posted on her own thread.http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=285520&highlight=kyrie

Here are pics of her son (Saber) and his sons Sovereign and Phoenix. Note dark marbling of Sovie’s neck shortly after he was clipped. His face was not clipped.

The first horse is Grande Phoenix . He had wild brindle coloring on his legs infused with a spiral stripe wrapped around his hind leg . He was the color of a root beer float when he was born. His next color was a dark pali and then liver. He also has wheat , white and black spots. Check out the spot on his belly & inside his LF

It’s fun to foal out this line!

[back_in_the_saddle]

[QUOTE=JB;5424394]

How is sooty going to visibly affect black? ;)[/QUOTE]

Could the sooty gene turn black into a fading black? Is sooty tied to fading?

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=back in the saddle;5423829]
Based on this theory, how did Donnerhall end up being liver? Obviously both parents were Ee and both passed the e’s to create ee. Why didn’t the sooty gene in his dam/sire affect the black?[/QUOTE]

Color me confused…I don’t know Donnerhall and the post I was responding to said he was dark bay. I was assuming (yes, I know) that being “dark bay” and siring a liver chestnut, he probably had a sooty gene in with his bay and passed this along with a red (and a red from the mare in that post) to make chestnut with sooty…liver.

[JB]

@back in the saddle;5425178

Could the sooty gene turn black into a fading black? Is sooty tied to fading?

One person has tried to tell me this a few times, and I don’t buy it.

It doesn’t at all explain “selective” fading, certain areas fading more than others.

[back_in_the_saddle]

Will a liver x liver always produce a liver?

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=back in the saddle;5425262]
Will a liver x liver always produce a liver?[/QUOTE]

No…which is one of the reasons there is thinking that some modifier (sooty perhaps?) involved in the livers…if so and if dominant a liver could be hetero for sooty and if bred to another would have 25% chance of no sooty in foal, 50% chance of hetero sooty and 25% chance of HZ for sooty (maybe the very, very dark, near black chestnuts?).

[Tasker]

[QUOTE=back in the saddle;5425262]
Will a liver x liver always produce a liver?[/QUOTE]

Not in my experience. But as a side note - all of the liver chestnuts I have come into contact with are all expressing a sabino gene.