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Color Enthusiast ~ Liver Chestnut: The "gateway for color"?

Sport Horse Breeding
#61

I have what I assume was a liver chestnut now turned grey who had the same strange brindle pattern on his hind legs when he was younger… he also went through a very odd yellowish stage when he was about two. Although I don’t have any pictures of him as a yearling, his color would have been very similar to your Phoenix, I think. The mane still is the same dark colour as Phoenix’s is in the picture; the tail is now grey but was reddish chestnut on the top and darker on the bottom.

He’s a TB with two grey parents. The sire (who is grey and the product of two grey parents) seems to throw a lot of chesnuts. My boy has the sabino influence in the blaze, two white stockings and one white coronet.

#62

Dressage Diva… Has his momma ever been tested for Silver??

Pat O. ~ Exactly what I was trying to reference in my original post <smile>.

#63

Does the sooty gene affect the bay color?

#64

[QUOTE=back in the saddle;5425967]
Does the sooty gene affect the bay color?[/QUOTE]

Yes…will make what is normally a simple bay (reddish body, black points) and give a much darker body, sometimes with dappling (although that isn’t clearly a sooty/smutty characteristic since lots of horses without sootiness have dapples). My bay tobiano is probably a sooty/smutty bay and he does pass it along.

Here are photos of him in winter coat (darker) and summer (still a bit darker than most bright bays)…
http://coloredcowhorseranch.com/ima_streakin_doc

#65

[QUOTE=coloredcowhorse;5425994]
Yes…will make what is normally a simple bay (reddish body, black points) and give a much darker body, sometimes with dappling (although that isn’t clearly a sooty/smutty characteristic since lots of horses without sootiness have dapples). My bay tobiano is probably a sooty/smutty bay and he does pass it along.

Here are photos of him in winter coat (darker) and summer (still a bit darker than most bright bays)…
http://coloredcowhorseranch.com/ima_streakin_doc[/QUOTE]

Good. My liver chestnut mare is in foal to a homozygous EEA? stallion so the foal will be black or bay and not chestnut. Hopefully it will be dark dark as I don’t care for plain bays.

#66

Coloredcowhorse-
This is off topic but…
We breed sport horses but just had our first QH foal, Funny Money by Big Chex to Cash out of Funny Face Smoke <Freckle Face Smoke x Remenic> (my husband has a reiner). Mare is liver chestnut, sire is palamino. Both have one blue eye and lots of white.

Foal appears to be really light chestnut so I am hoping she will be palamino and don’t know how to guess coat color changes as I have never had one. Also both eyes are very light grey and I wonder if you know what how eye color changes in foals (always bred bay, chestnut, grey sport horses with out much chrome)?

Thanks so much in advance!

#67

As for that grey parent observation, I have a gorgeous chocolate liver chestnut TB mare with a flea-bitten grey dam and a sire with the same gorgeous liver chestnut coat.
So far she has produced a mahogany bay (red bay sire), a black (dark bay sire), and a redder liver chestnut (same as sire). We don’t aim to breed for color, but her foals are all gorgeous colors and people do notice!
There IS something to this observation about the grey parent though. The liver chestnut sire of our mare’s redder liver chestnut foal has a dam that is grey also.

#68

I think that there are a LOT of factors in coor heritability that have yet to be scientific “fact.” Observation is the way to know these.

#69

Here’s a question - would you consider this guy a liver?

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/167835_10150390760670046_818070045_16911476_1642771_n.jpg

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/12642_324759285045_818070045_9543840_5605354_n.jpg

Belly of the beast
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/182650_10150405546240046_818070045_17162441_1176189_n.jpg

As a side note - he produced a red dun tobiano colt when bred to a grulla tobiano mare. His sire is solid black, dam is chestnut w flaxen (breed does not have any gray anywhere)

Foal
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/74801_10150309138605046_818070045_15450818_196814_n.jpg

#70

I have a taffy (silver) pony who is haflinger/welsh and the most gorgeous boy in creation, he has black points, dark chocolate coat with dapples and blonde mane and tail. Stunning boy. Judge comments in tests have varied from ‘bay’ to ‘taffy’ to ‘liver’ but having a liver mare (Donnerhall line) she is a much darker colour than he is.

My dream one day would be to get a good warmblood cross in a silver to compete on as my pony is the boy I’ve had since the age of 10, and the love of my life.

My liver mare by Ronaldo (black) is out of a Donnerhall line mare and gets the liver from that side, she’s in foal to Don Frederico (black) so I have 1/3 chance black, 1/3 bay and 1/3 chestnut. I wonder, the chestnut would be liver I assume, I can’t imagine I’d get a ranga out of a liver mare and black stallion- would I?

#71

Got pictures? Chestnuts can be born really light, and palominos can be born relatively dark LOL

Also both eyes are very light grey and I wonder if you know what how eye color changes in foals (always bred bay, chestnut, grey sport horses with out much chrome)?

Thanks so much in advance!

Eye color does change from the foal stage, but usually changes pretty quickly. “Light gray” can easily change to regular brown (ish)

[quote=knowthatifly;5426457]As for that grey parent observation, I have a gorgeous chocolate liver chestnut TB mare with a flea-bitten grey dam and a sire with the same gorgeous liver chestnut coat.
So far she has produced a mahogany bay (red bay sire), a black (dark bay sire), and a redder liver chestnut (same as sire). We don’t aim to breed for color, but her foals are all gorgeous colors and people do notice!
There IS something to this observation about the grey parent though. The liver chestnut sire of our mare’s redder liver chestnut foal has a dam that is grey also.
[/quote]

It has nothing to do with gray :wink: Your exact situation (of colors) has been produced without gray anywhere in the picture.

#72

Those pictures make it very hard to say. He’s quite dark, and is flaxen (though a dark flaxen), and may well be. It would help to have a Spring/Summer picture.

As a side note - he produced a red dun tobiano colt when bred to a grulla tobiano mare. His sire is solid black, dam is chestnut w flaxen (breed does not have any gray anywhere)

Foal
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/74801_10150309138605046_818070045_15450818_196814_n.jpg

[/quote]

But that was all the dam :wink: He only has ee to pass. She, being grulla, had the dun, and was obviously Ee and passed the e, and passed her tobiano. He only allowed that red dun tobiano to be produced by giving his e - she actually caused the red, and the dun, and the tobiano.

#73

[QUOTE=quicksilverponies;5421872]
I have a dark liver chestnut stallion, and I have to say that everyone that sees him, LOVES him. It really is such a pretty color - esp. with his chrome. - He is a product of a chestnut stallion and grey mare. When I bought him as a weanling, he looked like a normal bright chestnut. He has gotten darker with each passing year. He has full siblings that are grey and regular chestnut and even chestnut roan. So far, his foals have been liver chestnut out of a black based grey mare, palomimo out of a chestnut based (and formerly palomino) gey mare, and 2 bays out of bay mares. He is expecting more foals in the spring. Here is a foal photo and then a more recent one.[/QUOTE]

Wow Quick, that is a beautiful pony, liver or not. I do happen to especially treasure liver chestnuts. So rare in TBs as well.

#74

[QUOTE=Sabovee;5426510]
Here’s a question - would you consider this guy a liver?

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/167835_10150390760670046_818070045_16911476_1642771_n.jpg

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/12642_324759285045_818070045_9543840_5605354_n.jpg

Belly of the beast
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/182650_10150405546240046_818070045_17162441_1176189_n.jpg

As a side note - he produced a red dun tobiano colt when bred to a grulla tobiano mare. His sire is solid black, dam is chestnut w flaxen (breed does not have any gray anywhere)

Foal
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/74801_10150309138605046_818070045_15450818_196814_n.jpg[/QUOTE]

Yes…although not as dark as many. (you now also know that his sire is hetero for black and that the black tobi mare was also hetero for black…figuring out color genetics works not only for figuring foal colors but sometimes ID’s info in parents as well).

#75

[QUOTE=madamlb;5426550]
My liver mare by Ronaldo (black) is out of a Donnerhall line mare and gets the liver from that side, she’s in foal to Don Frederico (black) so I have 1/3 chance black, 1/3 bay and 1/3 chestnut. I wonder, the chestnut would be liver I assume, I can’t imagine I’d get a ranga out of a liver mare and black stallion- would I?[/QUOTE]

Uhm…your liver mare is a chestnut so had to get red genes from BOTH sire and dam…so the black that is her sire is hetero for black and passed his red gene along to match up with the dam’s red. Since she’s bred to a black (is he hetero or homozygous for black?) you have a 50/50 chance the foal will be black based (100% chance if the stallion is HZ for black, 50% if he’s hetero). Since the stallion is black he has no agouti to pass to make a bay foal. Your mare, being red, can have agouti but it won’t show as it only effects black pigment. You could have her tested. If she has no agouti you won’t get bay. If she’s hetero for agouti you would have 50/50 chance for a black based foal to be bay. If she were to be HZ for agouti (red based horses can be…my old paly stallion was) then you couldn’t get black…all black based foals would inherit A from her and be bay.

#76

Liver & SD can look alike, but different genotypes

My liver fades/bleaches out terribly. Even though her “new coat” is chocolate… she inevitably fades to a rusty/bleh color.

My sister’s RED RED RED chestnut doesn’t fade or bleach one bit!

This is a really cool thread. I love the photos of all the livers and I love that sooty flaxen welsh with chrome!!! The welsh’s can have some pretty funky chestnuts and some LOVELY dark dark ‘black chestnuts’ too.

Here’s my liver with a “new coat”, so it’s not bleached:
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk150/elaineshickman/Fancy%20Family/IMG_0346.jpg

Here it is terribly bleached :frowning:
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk150/elaineshickman/Fancy%20Family/Windance_97.jpg

To the OP: liver has nothing to do with silver dapple. There are many liver flaxens that look silver dapple and vice versa. That has nothing to do with the genetics. I also don’t think liver “boosts” how much a dilution gene (like cream) is inherited.

Here is a silver dapple and a liver flaxen (my mare) Similar-looking, but nothing alike, genetically:

Black Silver Dapple:
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk150/elaineshickman/DSC03613.jpg

Flaxen Liver:
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk150/elaineshickman/Fancy%20Family/F_sideblur_sm.jpg

Flaxen Liver:
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk150/elaineshickman/Fancy_firstcaleroshow_sm.jpg

Also - when a black silver dapple doesn’t have a light mane and tail, the similarity can be even closer to liver. This is a black silver dapple with dark mane and tail:
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk150/elaineshickman/Color/foxtonsmokydawnside.jpg

This is a dark liver chestnut (what we call black chestnut)
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk150/elaineshickman/Color/merwinsallabreeze.jpg

[QUOTE=back in the saddle;5423253]
My liver chestnut mare didn’t have a grey parent. One black, the other was chestnut.

Donnerhall (liver chestnut) had two black parents. http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=372950&time=1203846326

I’ve found that my liver mare fades to a blond color in the summer. A normal bright copper chestnut doesn’t fade, at least in my experience.[/QUOTE]

#77

No, I wouldn’t call that liver

You could describe him as dark chestnut flaxen though :slight_smile: He’s handsome! What breed? Is he Welsh Cob?

[QUOTE=Sabovee;5426510]
Here’s a question - would you consider this guy a liver?

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/167835_10150390760670046_818070045_16911476_1642771_n.jpg

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/12642_324759285045_818070045_9543840_5605354_n.jpg

Belly of the beast
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/182650_10150405546240046_818070045_17162441_1176189_n.jpg

As a side note - he produced a red dun tobiano colt when bred to a grulla tobiano mare. His sire is solid black, dam is chestnut w flaxen (breed does not have any gray anywhere)

Foal
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/74801_10150309138605046_818070045_15450818_196814_n.jpg[/QUOTE]

#78

Liver with no chrome

[QUOTE=Tasker;5425318]
Not in my experience. But as a side note - all of the liver chestnuts I have come into contact with are all expressing a sabino gene.[/QUOTE]

There are plenty of livers with no chrome either:

My mare:
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk150/elaineshickman/FancyProPics010.jpg

Liver Morgan:
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk150/elaineshickman/Milly_Me_6.jpg

Morgan mare (looks just like mine :slight_smile:
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk150/elaineshickman/Color/SheltonRebelStarBeauty.jpg

Morgan stallions:
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk150/elaineshickman/Color/desi_liver_looks_blackbased.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk150/elaineshickman/Color/ZLippittWhitindale.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk150/elaineshickman/Color/merwinsallabreeze.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk150/elaineshickman/Color/wintergreen_don_diego_2b.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk150/elaineshickman/Color/vigilmarch.jpg

Morgan mare:
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk150/elaineshickman/Color/abby_1.jpg

#79

Truly, you can’t tell by observation whether a horse is Liver, Silver Dapple-gened or even Black + Creme dilute gene… especially when you add summer fading, flaxen, ordinary dappling…

Really without the DNA testing you might be in for some huge surprises if the horse is ever bred, especially adding gray into that mix, as it covers up or intensifies base color before fading out.

Love a deep, clear, burgundy wine purple color -only saw it on one QH mare and her foal.

#80

[QUOTE=Fancy That;5427807]
You could describe him as dark chestnut flaxen though :slight_smile: He’s handsome! What breed? Is he Welsh Cob?[/QUOTE]

He’s a Cheval Canadien :slight_smile:

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