Color experts - satin gene?

[Daventry]

OK color experts, does anyone know if any of the labs, etc. are doing research or work on the satin gene? I know this topic has been discussed a bit over the years. I know there is a Satin gene in rabbits and cats. Has it been found in horses? Apparently the metallic sheen normally seen in the Akhal-Teke breed is a result of a hollow shaft in the hair follicles, which causes light to go through. Has this been found in other breeds?

I really would like to pursue this further with our Section D Welsh Cob stallion. I know a few people say this is a “stallion thing”. But I just disagree. I’ve seen many, many stallions over the years and none of them have a coat like this. Brandysnap has an almost iridescent quality to the coat. He’s not blanketed ever, he hardly ever gets brushed unless I’m going for a ride or we’re getting ready for a show…and no products or supplements are used to enhance his coat.

I’ve included photos below to show the metallic quality that his coat has. These photos haven’t been photo shopped or enhanced, it’s not the sunlight…this is what his coat really looks like…all the time! Even the hair on his lower legs shimmers. Even with half of his winter coat still coming out and not having had a bath for 6 months, he still has the same iridescence to his coat…

JB, any word on someone looking into what this “coat modifier” is? I’m wondering if Brandysnap has the same kind of hollow shaft hair follicles that the Teke’s have?!?

[paintedblibb]

While I am not a color expert I have researched quite a bit on color genetics and “genes” that can hide under certain coat colors. It is to my understanding that there is no satin gene in horses as there is in rabbits and cats. Your Section D stallion looks to me like a version of a silver bay. I know that in many of Akhal-Teke’s the reason for their metallic sheeny coats often has to do with combinations of silver, creme, and pearl dilution genes. It may be that your stallion has a silver gene in there somewhere which isn’t that uncommon in Welsh’s. Sometimes pearl can hide under base coats as well in its heterozygous form. Some horses can carry the gene without showing any appearances of carrying the gene. Both Animal Genetics Inc. and UC Davis Veterinary Genetics Laboratory can test for pearl, and silver dilution genes. This is just a thought! Like I said I’m no expert but that would be my first thought

[Daventry]

[QUOTE=paintedblibb;7553308]
Your Section D stallion looks to me like a version of a silver bay. [/QUOTE]

He’s definitely not silver bay…chestnut all the way. He has actually been DNA color tested and is aa for the Agouti gene.

From what I understand, the silver gene has no affect on chestnut horses and only affects black pigment. I will likely get shot for saying this, but I don’t personally believe there is a “natural” silver gene present in the Welsh…but it is present in the Shetlands. It is well known that the Welsh Pony & Cob Society of Canada does not require regular DNA testing, and I know of one long-time breeder who also bred Shetlands, as well as Welsh Ponies. I firmly believe he crossed the two breeds, whether knowingly or not, and registered them as purebred Welsh Ponies…hence, several funky colors suddenly popping up in some of our Canadian-bred ponies. That being said, Brandysnap is directly UK-bred with no Canadian ancestors.

Maybe someone can prove me wrong regarding the silver gene and Welsh. All of the silver dapple Welsh Ponies that I know of have direct Canadian ancestors.

[JB]

The Tekes DO have that hollow hair shaft that gives them that metallic shine, and that’s being called the “satin gene” until something else comes along, but since as said it’s so very similar to rabbits, I don’t see why “satin” wouldn’t stick.

But no, not to my knowledge, I don’t think anyone is working on it

That said, unless the pictures just don’t show it well, I’m not sure I see it in your guy? He’s super shiny but maybe not the same?

Silver doesn’t show in the reds, no, but that said, it sort of does As adults, no, I’ve not seen a tested ee silver who looks the part, or “different”. But, as foals, I’ve seen more than a couple now who have a very “odd” look to them. Purple skin. Truly. Worth A Shot Farm has a pony who, as a foal last year, was very, very purple in his skin, very visible around his nose and eyes. Tested silver. In addition to him I’ve seen a couple more, and have another silver breeder say she has seen that in her silver reds too.

And for what it matters, I think this guy is a flaxen chestnut with a good dose of sooty

[Daventry]

[QUOTE=JB;7553695]

And for what it matters, I think this guy is a flaxen chestnut with a good dose of sooty :)[/QUOTE]

Yes, it has always been extremely difficult to tell people what shade of chestnut he is when they ask. I don’t think he can be considered a liver chestnut. Definitely flaxen, as he has always had a flaxen tail and mane, though, his mane has continued to darken over the years…tail continues to have the big blonde streak in it. This is him as a two year old. Never crossed my mind that he could be sooty.

[Daventry]

I also forgot to mention his distinct, light amber eyes. Hard to tell in these photos (loading them up to the COTH database shrinks them down in size), but they are very light in color. I assuming his coat color affects his eye color as well?!?

[Donkaloosa]

Champagne? I’m saying that only because of the eye color — other than that, I agree with JB about being a flaxen chestnut and sooty.

Whatever color he is, he’s a good looking boy!

[JB]

Not champagne - they have a different eye color, though some can tend towards that lighter brown. Plus, pink skin, mottled around the thinner haired areas

That lighter eye definitely has a genetic component to it, but it’s not known. Look at Seattle Slew’s eye - so many of his descendants, and not just directs, have it.

It DOES seem to be more common on the darker shades, though certainly not relegated to them.

I do think you could get away with calling him liver. He’s not as dark as the typical liver, but he’s very close.

[weixiao]

No helpful knowledge of color and genetics but wow, he is stunning!!

[Donkaloosa]

I’ve heard that color called “chocolate palomino,” which sounds delicious, but isn’t correct on a genetic basis.

[JB]

Yeah, that term can be misleading. You CAN have a “chocolate palomino”, a very dark pali, but this guy isn’t palomino so is not correct for him.

It’s also used incorrectly for some black silvers who present in a pretty maximally expressed silver way, with the “silver” mane and tail and the dark chocolate body.

Here’s an actual Chocolate Palomino
http://www.colormorgans.com/cb3.jpg

You tend to see a lot of very dark/sooty palominos in the Morgan breed.

[honeylips]

it’s a stallion thing. Some just express more of the shine/glisten than others. It’s related to testosterone my vets tell me. Goldi absolutely GLISTENS like pure gold - year round. Even when clipped. A friend’s Luso stallion has a white/silver coat that glistens as well. Several stallions I have bought and then gelded you can actually see the “shine” start to fade away after 1-2 months post gelding.

[MuskokaLakesConnemaras]

The stallion I have here on lease, Morning Glorys Ilyushin is EXTREMELY glittery. I have seen it before, but always on stallions and assumed it was a “stallion” thing.

[goodpony]

I have a mare with that kind of metallic sheen but she is grey so its not easily photographed. Im told its something that runs in the family so she is not the only one. Her 2013 colt appears to have it and her 2007 daughter as well.

[Ibex]

My mare has the same sheen… SWB/TB with a lot of Trak/Prussian in the SWB side. I constantly get asked how I get her that shiny… she’s well fed, but so is everyone else in the barn, and it’s most certainly not my stellar grooming efforts :winkgrin: