Color puzzle...paint peeps?

[columbus]

Sorry no genetic testing.
http://www.horseclicks.com/2012_chocolate_palomino_irish_sporthorse_filly/advert/260648

I have been waiting for her to post this filly as her color is driving me nuts and now there are pictures.

She is by a chestnut Irish Draught stallion, Hangon Johnny.

Her dam, Godiva, is a mystery color as well…likely the same modifier as the filly. Godiva is by a black Irish Draught Sport Horse stallion Alainn Shawn who is by a chestnut ID sire and out of a blk/br TB dam. Godiva is out of a paint mare, Legends Liberty Chance. http://www.legendwoods.com/HorsePages/33_Zia/index.html

As you can see the color on this mare could be in question because she has only a small amount of color to see…she is a medicine hat paint. She is registered as a black Tovero. The registry lists her sire as black and her dam as chestnut. Her registration lists her dam side great grand dam as a dun. However if you look on allbreedpedigree someone has entered some comments on her grand dam as being a silver tobiano due to odd colors of foals

I think this filly and her dam are Silver Dapples. What do you think? PatO

[columbus]

Oh sorry I forgot to mention that the link to “Zia” Zia is not the mare in question. Her dam is the granddam of the filly and her photo and registration is shown in the top right corner. Also there are pictures on the allbreedpedigree of the paint mares in question. Thanks. PatO

[JB]

Is the dam the horse beside her in the 3rd pic? And the sire is the adult horse in the slide show?

if so, I think all 3 are chestnut with flaxen, just varying shades.

[TaliaCristianna]

OOOOH BOY! Did I get excited when I saw the mare’s pedigree!

Definitely DEFINITELY test the mare for silver. She descends from an almost 100% certain (highly suspected but not yet confirmed by DNA) silver line. One of only TWO known/suspected silver lines in the APHA breed.

My silver APHA mares descend from a different, completely unrelated silver line which I traced to a grade mare named Painted Liz.

Miss Tikki Reed is the great grandmother to this guy here, he exhibits the textbook classic phenotype for silver dapple. Unfortunately he was gelded and sold without papers so he was never tested.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bn+pecos+pete

The mare Legend’s Liberty Chance could very well be a silver dapple. All the white covers many of the telltale signs. She looks very very simliar to this guy, Angels Little Jack, who is a son of my now deceased silver buckskin broodmare and a half-brother to my two other mares. He is DNA tested silver black, Ee aa nZ.

http://www.silverequine.com/uploads/8/8/3/4/8834726/2850739.jpg

You can read about my silver APHA horses here:

www.silverspringfarm.net

Here’s an article from the APHA journal that discusses both my mares and BN Pecos Pete.

www.painthorsejournal.com/pastissues/pdfs/PreciousMetal.pdf

[TaliaCristianna]

FWIW, I think the ID cross filly in the ad is a brown silver - not a black silver. Can’t tell what the dam is based off of the pics though.

[SmartAlex]

My inital thought was black with silver.

[FatCatFarm]

Yes, definitely investigate for silver dapple. Would be very cool to see on a large horse outside of the pony and Rocky Mountain horses.

[TaliaCristianna]

[QUOTE=FatCatFarm;6585576]
Yes, definitely investigate for silver dapple. Would be very cool to see on a large horse outside of the pony and Rocky Mountain horses.[/QUOTE]

FatCat, silver does exist in several non-gaited horse breeds although silver lines are rare.

To date it has been confirmed in American Paints, Quarter Horses, Morgans, Saddlebreds, Gypsy Vanners and even some Dutch Warmbloods.

Silver tends to express itself a bit more minimally on most of those breeds. We’re not sure why. Makes it that much harder to find because people don’t really know they are looking at.

For example, here is a lovely silver bay ApHC filly. She received the silver gene from her AQHA sire. She is a minimal expression of silver. DNA tested Ee AA nZ.

http://www.safyresporthorses.com/khepri.html

Here is my black silver APHA mare. EE aa nZ:

http://silverspringfarm.net/images/bella1.jpg

Even though both mares are quite minimal (when compared to say - ponies or RMHs) they can still produce loud silver progeny. We are not sure what it is that dictates expression. It does appear that silver on brown is usually more minimal than silver on true bay.

Here is my silver bay 2011 APHA filly. She is quite loud despite the fact that both of her parents were minimally expressed silvers. (Brown silver sire, buckskin silver dam.)

http://silverspringfarm.net/sales_94_3093913572.JPG

[FatCatFarm]

Thanks for the reply and I agree it’s probably been overlooked in some of those breeds. I had an ApHC mare, Dazzling Vision Spot, who was smokey black and it was her eyes that gave it away. Amazing how long it has taken some of the registeries to catch up to the dilute and silver modifying genes.

Your mare Angel makes me wonder about the Saddlebred stallion I picked up. I haven’t color tested him yet but plan to, but now I’m wondering if he carries a silver gene himself. All of his foals to date have been black based dilutes. I just love the dapples in his buckskin coloring. Check out my FB page for photos (in signature line). Will be curious to hear what you think.

[TaliaCristianna]

[QUOTE=FatCatFarm;6587143]
Thanks for the reply and I agree it’s probably been overlooked in some of those breeds. I had an ApHC mare, Dazzling Vision Spot, who was smokey black and it was her eyes that gave it away. Amazing how long it has taken some of the registeries to catch up to the dilute and silver modifying genes.

Your mare Angel makes me wonder about the Saddlebred stallion I picked up. I haven’t color tested him yet but plan to, but now I’m wondering if he carries a silver gene himself. All of his foals to date have been black based dilutes. I just love the dapples in his buckskin coloring. Check out my FB page for photos (in signature line). Will be curious to hear what you think.[/QUOTE]

Awesome! I will check out your page when I get home. (FB is blocked for me right now.)

Cream and silver have an interesting effect on each other. For the most part cream tends to mute silver’s effects. Some silver buckskins hardly show a hint of the silver gene at all.

This guy here is a DNA confirmed silver buckskin but you would never guess silver was there by looking at him.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/rosmels+golden+wonder

[FatCatFarm]

Same here so here he is on Delmar: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/el+dorado+gold+charm

Plus one more photo: http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse-forums/members/fatcatfarm-albums-my+horses-picture126580-charm-trying-talk-moon-into-little-hanky.jpg

[TaliaCristianna]

Okay, I got to check out his pics. First off - WOW what a cool guy! I just love seeing nice saddlebreds in sport. He is one nice substantial fellow! Nice jump too!

I don’t see anything that screams silver to me. His mane and tail look to be a true black at the roots. My silver buckskin mare did not have any black on her at all. Her mane and tail were a dark burgundy color with flaxen tips. Here legs were not black either, but a very dark burgundy color.

You can see her leg and forelock color pretty well here:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=172127426179090&set=a.171716262886873.45142.171705956221237&type=3&theater

Tail color here:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3920091274752&set=a.3920090314728.2163623.1053649385&type=3&theater

But - then again, we have this guy. He’s the silver buckskin with hardly a hint of silver. He has only a hint of golden highlights in his mane and forelock.

http://www.willowbendfarm.com/golden5-05.jpg

Here is the pedigree for the known silver saddlebred mare. I wonder if she has any common ancestors with your guy?

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/commanders+crescent+society

[FatCatFarm]

I see what you mean. Interesting. My two buckskins Georgian Grandes by Spot of Gold are very much like the Willowbend Welsh stallion in color and have tons of silver in their manes and the youngest in his tail; and they get golden highlights in their black points during summer. Might be fun to check and see since I think the color test is only $25. Thanks for the compliments on Charm. He’s a nice boy. Your 2012 colt is super fancy!

[TaliaCristianna]

[QUOTE=FatCatFarm;6588382]
I see what you mean. Interesting. My two buckskins Georgian Grandes by Spot of Gold are very much like the Willowbend Welsh stallion in color and have tons of silver in their manes and the youngest in his tail; and they get golden highlights in their black points during summer. Might be fun to check and see since I think the color test is only $25. Thanks for the compliments on Charm. He’s a nice boy. Your 2012 colt is super fancy![/QUOTE]

Thank you! That colt is such a cool guy. Really laid back and HUGE to boot. He is the spitting image of his mother - who is my favorite riding horse.

One thing about the silver gene is the name itself is kind of misleading. Most large-breed black-based silver horses have a mane/tail that’s not really silver - rather, it’s more of a brassy gold color.

I have gotten pretty good at guessing whether a horse is silver based off of the tone of the lightened mane and/or tail.

A lot of suspected silvers end up being bays with gulastra plume, like this guy:

http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/images/horsecolor/oddities/donatello_17yotb1.jpg

Or bay sabino. Certain sabino lines have an amazing dilution effect on the mane and points. Khartoon Klassic (DNA’d EE AA) sires A LOT of foals like this:

http://www.khartoonkhlassic.com/img6.jpg

Then there is wild bay - which is another notorious silver mimic:

http://www.morgancolors.com/bushcreektrillium.jpg

When cream is added to any of those bay variations you get a pretty convincing silver buckskin as well. It will be nice when we can test for the wild bay gene and the rest of the sabino genes!

If you do test your guy - be sure to let us know the results. It would be very exciting to find another line of silver saddlebreds!

[D_BaldStockings]

Note that the Saddlebred mare Crescent Society is deceased.

Her surviving Silver Bay or Brown offspring is in Australia siring foals -see the links.

http://www.dilutesqld.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=106010849
http://www.facebook.com/PlatinumParkAmericanSaddlebredPerformanceHorses

Note that ASHA registry does not have silver as an option: both dam and son are registered ‘chestnut’ although both were/are silver bay or brown.

The Silver gene would have had to trace through her dam (chestnut?) as Crescent Society’s sire was registered bay and looked bay.

Tracing silver through chestnut Saddlebreds is an exercise in futility as the silver won’t show unless bred to a black-based horse and soooo many Saddlebreds are (true) chestnut.