Color question: chestnut TB stallion, sabino?

[EventerAJ]

I love to browse the stallion ads on the Bloodhorse stallion register. I stumbled across this guy earlier today: Sweet Return (GB) and I’m very intrigued by his color. He’s chestnut with jagged high whites-- obviously sabino – and with marked roaning all over his topline.

Is the roaning from the sabino? Or something else? And where did this color come from in the pedigree…? His sire is a pretty normal chestnut; he’s got some odd low hind pastern white, but otherwise ordinary coat (no roan). Paternal grandsire Diesis is a normal chestnut with some white. Maternal grandsire Claude Monet is the same-- a chestnut with white.

So… where’d the roan come from?

[chestnutwithchrome]

I believe it’s a byproduct of the rabicano gene, which is often seen concurrently with the sabino gene.

[Judysmom]

[QUOTE=chestnutwithchrome;6654695]
I believe it’s a byproduct of the rabicano gene, which is often seen concurrently with the sabino gene.[/QUOTE]

Interesting! This thread caught my eye as my dark chestnut TB is starting to get white hairs mixed in on the top of his rump. He has 2 stockings, not jagged, one sock, a star and some bend or spots. His mane and tail are are half dark chestnut, and half strawberry roan colored. Really- its not sun bleaching.

I am a TB person, and know nothing about color, so I am always curious on these threads

[JWB]

Not sure what you mean by “jagged” but I’m curious about this as well, having just picked up this 5 y.o. TB mare:
Money Holder

From a distance she looks like a chestnut, but you get up close and her entire body has roaning, very significantly so around her face. The little girls who work at the barn and are new to horses said, “ooh! Look how white her face is. She must be old!”

I’ve always been a plain ol’ bay kind of girl and this is my first experience with a horse with chrome, so I’m curious about what genes are at play with her.
I have no idea what either of her parents looked like. I’ve searched the web but can’t find a photo.

[camohn]

[QUOTE=EventerAJ;6654634]
I love to browse the stallion ads on the Bloodhorse stallion register. I stumbled across this guy earlier today: Sweet Return (GB) and I’m very intrigued by his color. He’s chestnut with jagged high whites-- obviously sabino – and with marked roaning all over his topline.

Is the roaning from the sabino? Or something else? And where did this color come from in the pedigree…? His sire is a pretty normal chestnut; he’s got some odd low hind pastern white, but otherwise ordinary coat (no roan). Paternal grandsire Diesis is a normal chestnut with some white. Maternal grandsire Claude Monet is the same-- a chestnut with white.

So… where’d the roan come from?[/QUOTE]

I would guess at the Roberto/Hail To Reason. I have a mare like this by Hail The Pirates (Hail To Reason).

[JB]

The white in his coat is definitely Rabicano. It’s a more than typical presentation, but not as extreme as some I’ve seen.

he is ALSO Sabino, as attested to by the upward jag of his socks.

I also strongly believe he’s Splash as well - probably caused the loud leg white, and the shape of his face white lends to Splash as well.

[colorfan]

Sabino often has roan (different from true roan) attached to it, and as mentioned it is often seen with rabicano.
Sometimes it will manifest just a little in the flanks and sometimes it is quite extensive.
Likely if you could see one of the parents in person you would see some roaning on one of them.

Some lines carry the sabino gene, some don’t.

[JB]

Well, it’s not “roan attached” to Sabino, it’s the Sabino causing the roaning. They are one and the same, it’s just a matter of how it’s presented

Rabicano roaning can look pretty dramatically different from Sabino roaning. Usually if you see the roaning in the flanks, that’s from Rabicano. Sabino tends to be more or less generalized, where Rabicano tends to be localized. If you see roaning in front of the shoulders - Sabino. Rabicano stops at the barrel area.

[Tempi.Change]

Agree’d on Roberto/Hail to Reason line.

We have a few interestingly coloured TB’s without those lines which is seemingly adding some rarity to them.

I also agree the roaning is more relative to the Sabino, IMO. Roaning caused by Sabino usually looks more like flecks of snow on top of the body, while Rabicano will be more in the flank area… of course, there are exceptions to every “rule”…

Here’s the most colourful of our TB’s… 1999 mare
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/599182_3347320861273_1185674696_n.jpg

[Simkie]

[QUOTE=JB;6654909]
I also strongly believe he’s Splash as well - probably caused the loud leg white, and the shape of his face white lends to Splash as well.[/QUOTE]

Huh. The shape of his face white?

Would you call this sabino or splash?

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2259413720048290005VhSTCm

She has a little white on her lower lip as well.

Roberto breeding on this mare, too: www.pedigreequery.com/addicted+to+dove

[turningpointequine]

I have a yearling TB colt like this: (I need to get some updated pic’s of him) http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/594/securedownloadom.jpg/

Pedigree: http://www.pedigreequery.com/machiato+g

As a long yearling he now has roaning from his hips to his shoulders and also has a small skunk tail thing going on. I figure it should be interesting to see how he sheds out in spring. LOL Comes from his dad. Dad was minimal and just had a slight bit of roaning at the flank you had to look for but does have the skunk tail as well. Here’s the sire: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/231/elbaderconformationphot.jpg/
This is the dam with my colts full sibling who ended up being minimal as well (no star, nada, but two little hind socks like parents): http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/19/006212110120large.jpg/

[TrueColours]

Lovely stallion! Interesting on the Diesis connection through the sire line. I was looking at a mare to buy years ago by Diesis and she had a big bald face and 4 high whites so he seems to be a contributing factor as well

[JB]

[QUOTE=Simkie;6655148]
Huh. The shape of his face white?

Would you call this sabino or splash?

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2259413720048290005VhSTCm

She has a little white on her lower lip as well.

Roberto breeding on this mare, too: www.pedigreequery.com/addicted+to+dove[/QUOTE]
Splash due to the overall shape, with Sabino adding some jaggedness to the edge Splash likes smooth lines.

[allanglos]

[QUOTE=JB;6654958]
Well, it’s not “roan attached” to Sabino, it’s the Sabino causing the roaning. They are one and the same, it’s just a matter of how it’s presented

Rabicano roaning can look pretty dramatically different from Sabino roaning. Usually if you see the roaning in the flanks, that’s from Rabicano. Sabino tends to be more or less generalized, where Rabicano tends to be localized. If you see roaning in front of the shoulders - Sabino. Rabicano stops at the barrel area.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm, interesting. I have a rabicano stallion with white from his ears to his striped tail, and three low socks, star, and snip (dark brown). I bred him to a chestnut sabino Bit Of Class daughter, and the bay foal didn’t have a speck leg white and just a narrow blaze.

[foxhavenfarm]

Our 2012 colt ArtrageousBling has tons of roaning throughout his coat as well as unusual leg white (thank you Marquetry!) You can’t see the roaning in the picture, but you can see the other weird white:
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/253162_515791681783169_461460525_n.jpg

[JB]

I knew before looking at his pedigree that he had to go to Marquetry LOL That “weird white” is very typical of what that stallion does

[Real_Rush]

The TB stallion Copelan was notorious for passing on extensive white from a sabino gene. He got it from his dam, Susan’s Girl. Here’s a pic of 2 of my girls: http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/realrush89/P1010019-1.jpg

The bay is by Copelan, the chestnut has Copelan as a dam sire (grandfather on bottom). The bay has roaning below the fetlock on both hind legs, and the chestnut has several Bend Or spots scattered around, as well as a couple random white spots. If you look at my bay mare and then check out the picture of Susan’s Girl on her pedigree page, you’ll see the striking similarity.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/susans+girl Susan’s Girl has The Tetrarch a ways back, but not sure if that’s where she got the sabino from or if someone closer-in also passed it down.

[JB]

Susan’s Girl is (also) Splash, and when that teams up with another form of Splash, or possibly even with Sabino, the results can be very dramatic

I wish there were pictures of SG’s more immediate family

Bull Lea was certainly a moderate Splash. So were Olympia and Blenheim.

[EventerAJ]

Thanks JB for sharing all your knowledge! I’m not a huge color fanatic, but I do like some white…and I think it’s fascinating to learn the different patterns and where they come from.

Interesting about the Copelan sabino-- I’ve noticed most Rockport Harbors have a good bit of white on them… I assumed it came from the Unbridled’s Song, but maybe it actually comes from his dam (Regal Miss Copelan, by Copelan).

Curious, JB, what would you call Carnivalay’s “clown face?” My mare by Carnivalay has a white stripe, pink nose, and two low socks. She’s in foal to a sire who tends to consistently throw “normal” white… is there a chance I could get a foal with something unusual? Does the splash/sabino often skip or hide for a generation or two?

[Real_Rush]

One picture I managed to find online a while back is of the mare Regal Miss Copelan (by Copelan; pictured here with her colt by Summer Bird). Another great example of the prepotency of him passing on the white from SG…

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/realrush89/RegalMissCopelancoltbySummerBird.jpg

ETA: Ah EventerAJ, you beat me to it, bringing up Regal Miss Copelan!