Colorado peeps (or other brand inspection states) with FEI passports

[M_al]

I just called the Colorado Dept of Agriculture about this because it seems screwy (and I had bet my friend a Starbucks over the answer.)

Does a horse with an FEI international passport (issued by USEq, so USA passport) need a Colorado state brand inspection in order to be trailered?

The answer is, apparently, yes. How screwy is that? We have a passport allowing us to leave and re-enter the country with this horse … but it’s not acceptable to our state? I asked what would happen if a trailer from, say, Virginia (making up a non-brand inspection required state) were stopped by CSP. Would they not accept a passport as proof of ownership? She didn’t know. If it’s another brand inspection state (WY, for instance) they would accept that state inspection.

A passport is renewed every year, but the brand inspection only happens when ownership is transferred or as a one-time thing to generate ownership paperwork.

Does that sound just weird to anyone else? As a human, you don’t need a state ID if you have a USA passport. You can use your passport to open bank accounts, enroll in school, travel … basically anything requiring proof that you’re you. But not for horses? (Not that they open bank accounts often. Just suck them dry.)

Sigh. I owe a Starbucks …

[chestnutmarebeware]

It’s screwy because it’s an antiquated state law to prevent horse rustling, plus it provides the state with a bit of additional income. It’s also $8, or it was when I had it done, so not a big deal.

The FEI horse passport isn’t a federal law, so state law trumps a horse organization every time.

[HP_sblueskyenterprise]

True but not so antiquated I live the next state over and horse rustling does still occur. I do agree that from a certain standpoint its a bit screwy, but horse travel outside the country is relatively rare and from state to state and within states horse travel is common.

[RMJacobs]

Brand inspection in Colorado is also required if you transport the horse more than a particular distance, even within the state (I think it’s 70 miles). This was true when I moved my horse from Colorado last year. Perhaps something has changed since then, but knowing how slowly government can move, I doubt it.

Rebecca

[Where_sMyWhite]

Probably more cattle rustling than horses but yeah, brand inspection was to deal with livestock rustling

[IPEsq]

Yes it’s true. It’s really not a big deal to obtain one. It could help in the future with chain of title should you, for example, not renew the passport. But you also have to consider the rules are not there just for horses, and I’m sure there are many more horses in CO without a passport than with one!

[Simkie]

The brand inspection just verifies that the ownership paperwork is on the up and up, that the horse is owned by the seller, and that it is owned now by the purchaser. A permanent card covers travel, for as long as that owner has the horse. A trailer coming from elsewhere, passing through, or a horse that comes to Colorado in a transient manner (like for a show) is exempt from the brand inspection requirement.

Dunno about you, but I LIKE having an additional piece of paper that says I own the horse. The brand department had been able to recover horses that have been stolen. I get that it can be a bit of a hassle, but overall it’s a good thing.

Having spent nearly all of my “horse” years in Colorado, it is VERY weird living in a state with no brand inspection requirement.

[chestnutmarebeware]

@Simkie

Having spent nearly all of my “horse” years in Colorado, it is VERY weird living in a state with no brand inspection requirement.

Same with me, but when I was in Denver and being transferred to PA for work and someone informed me I’d need a brand inspection to ship my mare, I was a bit startled. I called the inspection office and asked if this was true. The guy said “Yes it is”. I said “But she doesn’t have a brand!” The guy said “Then we come out and say she doesn’t have a brand.” :lol:

The inspector compared her markings to both her registration papers and latest Coggins, asked for $8, and gave a me an official document. It’s never come out of my files since then, but I like having it.

[NoDQhere]

In SD we have to have a brand inspection any time the horse is leaving SD or going east across the Missouri river. Once you cross the river there is no brand inspection requirements. It is the most out dated ridiculous requirement in many western states dating back to the olden days when people stole horses. If it is a horse we are showing, we get a permanent travel permit. But, if that horse sells we have to get a “new” brand inspection for the horse to leave the state. To make your life easier, get the permanent “card” and be done with it.

[M_al]

Interesting responses. I was hoping for more bandwagon jumping, lol. I get WHY the brand inspection is done. I have had horses for years without FEI passports and every single one has gone through it.

My point was meant to be that for a horse that DOES have an FEI passport, it should be exempted from brand inspection until needed. If the passport is not renewed and the horse is sold or trailers somewhere, at THAT time a brand inspected is needed, not concurrently.

My point remains that the state should NOT supersede federal, I guess. It’s not expensive, unless you figure in ADDITIONAL lost time from work to meet the brand inspector, etc. To generate a passport, a vet has already been met and paid for 1) vaccinations; 2) health certificate … plus time spent driving to the central USDA location to pick up the paperwork for the vet to fill out. Plus verification of ownership (far better chain of ownership, as it notes breeder, sire, dam and damsire, etc.)

I’m saying that, yes, I get it … brand inspection is antiquated. Yes, it’s also required. I get that there’s a permanent travel card for in-state travel.

But I think it is dumb that the state acts like there is no such body as USEq and ignores that requirements for international travel are more stringent than anything the state could possibly pull off. My point is not that it’s cheap – it’s inconvenient and redundant!

[Simkie]

Consider what has to happen to allow the FEI passport to pass for a brand inspection–the training of all the cops, etc.

For what? Maybe 100 FEI passported horses in Colorado?

And then the brand inspectors also can’t help you at all if the horse is stolen, because the chain of custody has been broken.

[chestnutmarebeware]

[QUOTE=M’al;n10027991
My point remains that the state should NOT supersede federal, I guess. It’s not expensive, unless you figure in ADDITIONAL lost time from work to meet the brand inspector, etc. To generate a passport, a vet has already been met and paid for 1) vaccinations; 2) health certificate … plus time spent driving to the central USDA location to pick up the paperwork for the vet to fill out. Plus verification of ownership (far better chain of ownership, as it notes breeder, sire, dam and damsire, etc.)[/QUOTE]

But if you consider a driver’s license, that’s an instance where a national form of i.d. cannot be substituted for a state one (i.e. you can’t drive a car using a passport only. Sure, they’re both proof of some of the same things, but you don’t get to pick which one you use in every situation.They are two forms of i.d. from different agencies.) Plus FEI passports are not required for every horse in Colorado, so why would they want to re-write their whole system for a few horses?

[Simkie]

I went looking for what, exactly, constitutes “verifying ownership” for an FEI passport. I found this:

http://howto.fei.org/content/7/39/en…-passport.html

So, no one reviews the bill of sale? Or the papers? Or the previous Colorado brand paperwork?

This is not at ALL analogous in that case. Sure the Colorado permanent card ALSO acts as a travel document, but it’s main purpose is to verify that the seller can sell the horse and the buyer now owns the horse. If you have a horse new to CO, the brand inspector should be verifying that yes, you own it, before they issue the card. And by the time I was leaving (2014) they were getting a WHOOOOOLE lot more strict on actually wanting to be there AT the sale of the horse, before it was transported to it’s new home, to verify the sale. (That was always how it was supposed to work, but they used to be a lot softer on it, as long as all the paperwork was in order. Before I left, I heard stories about people being required to haul the horse BACK to where it was sold to get the brand card issued.)

The FEI Passport does not do that AT ALL. It looks like you can just log in and say you own it online.

The FEI Passport is all about verifying the identity of the horse. The brand paperwork is all about verifying ownership of the horse. Those are not the same.

[RMJacobs]

An aside on the subjection of Colorado brand inspection: I was not very impressed with the integrity of the procedure when I had my horse inspected for his move out of state. I couldn’t be there, as I had to be in South Carolina getting everything set up for boarding him. The barn owner where he’d been living for the last year represented me.
I left a copy of a 14 year old bill of sale from when I got him, and a letter to the brand inspector explaining that this horse was not inspected when I bought him due to the rules the rescue operated under at the time (they held the brand inspection for six months in case they needed to take the horse back; unfortunately I was never able to find them again). I think what probably happened is that the person I dealt with died. She was not doing well at the time I adopted horses through her. I never really worried about brand inspection as I didn’t think I would ever sell or move either of the horses I adopted through her.

I could have easily faked the bill of sale and just lied in the letter; the inspector had no way to know I was truthful. I don’t know, maybe when I talked to him about the situation, I came across like the truthful person I am. Anyway, he issued the brand inspection and the move went fine.

One thing I saw on the report that surprised me is that under markings, the inspector put that the horse had a non-visible blaze. He is a very light gray (looks white), and I never noticed the white blaze next to the nearly white hair on his face. Then, when he shed out after arriving in South Carolina, I could actually see the blaze for about a week. So I was impressed with the thoroughness of the exam.

The only other time I had a horse inspected in Colorado, it was an Appaloosa cross pony. For color, that inspector put down “sorrel, bay, black, white.” Well, that narrowed it down!

Rebecca

[Willesdon]

Surely this is chalk and cheese, apples and pears? The brand inspection is a legal requirement within the state. The FEI passport (with USEF involvement) is a document that IDs a horse for use in an organisation (effectively a sport club) for which you have paid a membership fee. It has no particular legal standing.

[WNT]

Regarding the thoroughness of the description of the grey with an invisible blaze, I had the opposite experience in Montana. I knew my very greyed out young TB had two hind stockings and a front sock you could only really see when his legs were wet. I tried to explain that to the brand inspector so the markings were recorded, and he said you couldn’t see them so he wouldn’t do it. I was a little annoyed.

[North_Dakota]

FEI passports have nothing to do with being able to go to different countries. They are needed for FEI horse shows. Horses travel in and out of countries every day without an FEI passport. I used to travel to the US a lot to show from Canada, if I had got out my horses FEI passports the border agents would have thought I was crazy and laughed at me. Horses who are participating in FEI competitions are the only ones required to have a passport. So racehorses, any non-FEI discipline (hunters for example), anyone showing in an FEI discipline not at an international level, horses that don’t show, etc. don’t need FEI passports.

[M_al]

Good discussion, all!

@North Dakota - good point. I guess when we go to Canada to compete it is at FEI venues, but we also attend those here in the US and are subject to the same security, etc. (Like, horse does not enter the secured stabling until it passes through the checkpoint w/FEI vet scanning microchip and verifying passport and health certificate contained within, etc.) Interestingly, the border checkpoints we go through always ask for and at least open the horse passports. (Speculating here, but most likely is just based on which border point.)

Also, having much experience (far too much, really) with state patrol and horse trailers. Really, they are not that trained about ANYTHING having to do with horses, brand inspection papers or no.

[North_Dakota]

@M'al

Good discussion, all!

@North Dakota - good point. I guess when we go to Canada to compete it is at FEI venues, but we also attend those here in the US and are subject to the same security, etc. (Like, horse does not enter the secured stabling until it passes through the checkpoint w/FEI vet scanning microchip and verifying passport and health certificate contained within, etc.) Interestingly, the border checkpoints we go through always ask for and at least open the horse passports. (Speculating here, but most likely is just based on which border point.)

Also, having much experience (far too much, really) with state patrol and horse trailers. Really, they are not that trained about ANYTHING having to do with horses, brand inspection papers or no.

They may open them, but not know what they are actually looking at purely based on experiences with border security who were definitely on a power trip, we’ve probably all had that experience, especially anyone who’s crossed the border enough!