Colt Starting Question

[Attack]

I posted this on the Race forum since I am asking about a race horse, but it might be more fitting on this forum due to the type of techniques I use to start colts.

Okay, I’ve started several colts with the help of a really good versatile trainer for most of them. But never a TB racing prospect. My neighbor needs a 2 y/o started so I took him on. I do not have access to the trainer I have worked with as he is preparing for a Mustang Challenge.

From day one I knew this TB was going to be different, even though I have an OTTB from the same stable next door. We actually share training facilities. He is athletic, and can be very explosive. I learned early on that I had to be much more subtle with my cues. To shorten this post I will get to the point without every detail of what I have done with him so far. It should be easy to fill in the details, but if you have more questions about the training I have done so far or about the horse feel free to ask.

After several days of ground work I prepared him to tack up and he accepted the saddle, a western saddle no less. Moved off well with it and never offered to buck or rear, and we did this for a few sessions. He was good with me laying over his back both saddled and not, as well as sitting on him both saddled and not, and we continued this as above. He accepted the reins and even “flexes” to both sides, steps hind feet over disengaging HQ’s w/o a rider on his back.

He will flex while standing still and rider mounted. However, when asked to move at all with a rider he explodes forward until the rider gets off of him. I don’t want to rush him or him to hurt himself. He has mastered ground work and is compliant in everything I can come up with to ask him to do except to move under control with a rider. Anyone have advice on where to go from here?

[CHT]

Is his back sore? Does the saddle sit too far back on him? Have you considered trying an English saddle on him (which may fit better and not put weight as far back)? Sounds like a pain response to me.

Or the person who sent him to you has left out some details of his past experiences…I was sent a horse for training whose only human handling was in a chute (deworming, shots and farrier work). I could do good ground work, and I could sit on him, but I could not get him to relax about me on him. I had to stop working with him after I was injured…in hindsight though, I should have suggested they find someone else sooner.

[Bluey]

Have you tried a test pilot, you working him from the ground like you have been and a very light, experienced colt starter getting on and you keep working him from the ground first, until you have him going on without fireworks?

We started many colts of all kinds and ages, many were feral horses.
Some we were riding the first day we worked with them, a few took several days on the ground before we thought they were ready.
The instructor was the man on the ground, I was the test pilot.
Worked very well for us.

May be something to try if you have not yet, the person on the ground is who controls and ask/teaches as the horse is getting used to a rider on top and later to the rider on top to take charge.

Forgot to add, when starting the horses like that, our ground work was on the longe line and so were our first ride or two also, so we kept control of the horse thru any odd moments it may want to feel insecure.

[beau159]

I second Bluey’s suggestion. It helps to have an extra person b/c you can still continue to cue him on the ground as you have been, and you can introduce a person on his back.

Ground driving would also be good, because you can continue to work on the “steering” without having someone on his back.

CHT could be correct … I had that happen to me once. Only got the “truth” from them a few weeks later, that the horse had actually been sent to another “trainer” who was afraid to ride said horse. The horse had perfect ground manners and was a sweetheart, and then turned into a terrified maniac once you got into the saddle. I have no idea what that trainer did to that poor horse.

Being a 2-year-old TB, I would also closely evaluate your saddle fit. Make sure it is a decent fit and it isn’t causing pain when you mount up.

[mvp]

I think he’s just not sure how to balance with a rider on his back while he’s moving.

The great colt-starters I know figure out a way to have them always going forward (tactfully) from day 1. The horse never gets a chance to worry too much about being unbalanced…. as he will be a bit at first and as he must learn to accept.

But it does take skill on the rider’s part to get this done. If you can get another person to help you, I’d start that way, with a lunge line. If not (or the better way to do it), teach yourself that you can stop this colt with one rein (though do it slowly) and then just ask for him forward, accepting what you get so long as it’s not broncing or bolting.

A big trot or an uncertain trot in a contained area is fine. Bridge your reins, pet him on the neck, talk to him and let him keep going so that he can figure out how to move with you on top of him. If you start to get into trouble, reel him in on that inside rein. If you can get a slower trot, let him straighten out and go forward again. That’s actually easier than making him stop or walk and getting back up to the trot again.

When he has taken a deep breath or shown some other form of relaxation during your long trot, stop following with your body, touch the reins and invite him to walk.

Does that sound feasible/appropriate for this horse and his level or worry/safeness?

[CHT]

How are you asking for the horse to go?

I had another thought: when I first started horses, I usually let their initial walk be their idea and I would be passive. Typically I would get on about 15 meters from the outgate (which in our indoor is just a stall guard separating the arena from the barn), and after sitting quietly for a while, the horse would get bored and walk to the outgate. I would just be a passenger.

[mvp]

I think he’s just not sure how to balance with a rider on his back while he’s moving.

The great colt-starters I know figure out a way to have them always going forward (tactfully) from day 1. The horse never gets a chance to worry too much about being unbalanced…. as he will be a bit at first and as he must learn to accept.

But it does take skill on the rider’s part to get this done. If you can get another person to help you, I’d start that way, with a lunge line. If not (or the better way to do it), teach yourself that you can stop this colt with one rein (though do it slowly) and then just ask for him forward, accepting what you get so long as it’s not broncing or bolting.

A big trot or an uncertain trot in a contained area is fine. Bridge your reins, pet him on the neck, talk to him and let him keep going so that he can figure out how to move with you on top of him. If you start to get into trouble, reel him in on that inside rein. If you can get a slower trot, let him straighten out and go forward again. That’s actually easier than making him stop or walk and getting back up to the trot again.

When he has taken a deep breath or shown some other form of relaxation during your long trot, stop following with your body, touch the reins and invite him to walk.

Does that sound feasible/appropriate for this horse and his level or worry/safeness?

[Timex]

When I start a youngster, whether it’s for the track or the show ring, I generally am the one to do the groundwork, lunging, etc. when the horse is ready, my son will belly them, and we’ll practice walking with weight over the horse’s back, before he ever swings a leg over. Once that is boring, he’ll get on, and I’ll just lead the horse around, gradually moving further away, until the horse is comfortable moving off on it’s own. Depending on the horse, some have gone onto the lunge line, some have moved right into using the whole ring on their own. But the main thing is to keep it simple, systematic, and allow the horse to think it’s no big deal…

[Attack]

Here is an update, part of which I posted on the other forum as a response to those questions:

I have him WTC both directions while tacked up. Sent him over bridges, tarps, etc…

I have not tried to ground drive him.

I have walked him with rider bellied on him. We have done up to 5 laps both directions in a 150x100 arena this way. We have done that for several days and he is fine with it, head down and relaxed.

Last night we progressed to circling him while leading with the rider sitting on him. He seemed fine. Handed the lead line to the rider, at the riders request, as I kept walking. As soon as he realized I did not have the lead line he ran to the round pen panel and the rider dismounted right before they reached the panel. The horse did stop at that point. We got greedy and ask for too much IMO.

I just found out, from the rider who was on him last night, that he recently ran through a rail fence and then a wire fence during a thunder storm. Would have been nice to know that little tidbit before I started him LOl. That is why he bailed off when the colt got close to the fence, not knowing if he would stop or try to jump it or run through it. To me that means the horse does not have much self preservation in mind when he is scared if he is running through fences. Could be a whole different animal no pun intended.

So, yes, the poster who stated that I might not have all the history of this colt was correct.

Also, we used an exercise saddle last night, so I don’t think pain from the saddle is an issue.

Thanks to all who have offered advice, and keep it coming.

[PeanutButterPony]

Do you have the ability to pony him with a rider?

[Bluey]

I have known a handful of horses that, when they panic, they go over anything, people, other horses, fences, cattle, off the edge of a canyon, like they can’t see there is something there.

I know of one that was a beautiful, wonderful colt and rode like a dream, but would lose it at times and sell out.
He finally broke the cowboy’s arm, he sold him to a friend, that kept the colt going and ended up one of those times in the ER and several days in ICU.

Once mature, that one horse was pulling one of those when being ridden only every several years.
After the third time of ER, ICU, etc., he gave the horse to a young cowboy, that managed not to end up getting hurt, but said that yes, that horse was a bit “special” and not for the risk adverse.
By the way, he was not a TB, but a Skipper W bred AQHA horse, known for being extremely sensible and above average self preservation, some call them stubborn, clearly the opposite of flighty and/or overreactive.
Something obviously was not right there.

If that colt is running blind and wild when scared in turnout, not only when you handle him, I wonder if he is one of those few horses wired wrong and how far he may get out of it, where he is safe for anyone to eventually ride without taking such risks.

[Attack]

Bluey,

Good points and questions. I will say when I first started sending him over and through obsticles he avoided the first one the first time by bolting extremely close to me and between the obstacle and my self. However, I did not allow that again. I admit he caught me off guard that first time. But the next time I let him know with the rope that he is not permitted to come that close to me. After that he avoided my space. So he does respond to parameters when he knows what they are. Of course I doubt that he was in fear of his life from the tarp I was sending him across.

It is intriguing to me that he is compliant at least when I lead him. So why the reaction when he realizes I am no longer leading him? I guess that is what I’m most confused about.

[Attack]

[QUOTE=PeanutButterPony;8239123]
Do you have the ability to pony him with a rider?[/QUOTE]

We do have the ability to do that, and that might not be a bad idea. Thanks for suggesting it.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Attack;8239271]
Bluey,

Good points and questions. I will say when I first started sending him over and through obsticles he avoided the first one the first time by bolting extremely close to me and between the obstacle and my self. However, I did not allow that again. I admit he caught me off guard that first time. But the next time I let him know with the rope that he is not permitted to come that close to me. After that he avoided my space. So he does respond to parameters when he knows what they are. Of course I doubt that he was in fear of his life from the tarp I was sending him across.

It is intriguing to me that he is compliant at least when I lead him. So why the reaction when he realizes I am no longer leading him? I guess that is what I’m most confused about.[/QUOTE]

Well, that one ranch horse in my example is now in his 20’s, retired but still at times used to give grandkids lead line rides around the yard.
He is dependable for that, still no one is permitted to ride him where he may bolt.

Horses, like humans, may have odd quirks.
Not saying yours does, you will have to figure him out, just stay safe.

You have run him by a vet, checked his heart, lungs, eyesight, soundness, including back and neck, looked at his mouth, to be sure there is not something physically wrong?

We were starting feral horses of all ages and sexes when we received this little cute five year old mare in one load of those.
She was a doll, learned to trust us right away and we were getting a saddle on her and she was just letting us do whatever we wanted.
We proceeded to get me on her and she bucked and twisted and dumped me.
So surprising, we rarely had one act up and they were warning us about it, being watchy and spooky, not dead quiet like she was.
Even more surprising, she acted dazed, not scared and was still cooperating right along as we tried a few more times.
We unsaddled, checked her over, changed saddles, tried again, the owner came and said, try without a saddle, she went over backwards, we decided to quit and see what we have tomorrow, we could not find anything wrong, but something had to be off.
All along she was not getting spooky or shying from all we were doing, just that explosion when someone sat on her back, something was wrong.

The vet checked her next morning, he came by every day to check everything, we had over 150 horses there and when he pushed a certain way on her side, she practically fell down, she had some badly healed broken ribs, is what the vet found out, which made her unrideable, sorry to say.

We felt terrible that we had kept trying and trying, when looking back, it was obvious that something was wrong, very wrong.
A lesson for all of us, you can’t apologize enough to a horse for that.
The vet said she would be ok as a broodmare and the owner turned her out to pasture.

No telling what is going on with your horse, hope you find out and let us know how things turn out.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Attack;8239271]

It is intriguing to me that he is compliant at least when I lead him. So why the reaction when he realizes I am no longer leading him? I guess that is what I’m most confused about.[/QUOTE]

I think plenty of horses feel this way. My own young mare does. That’s one of the reasons I want to teach her to long line. When I lunge her, I make a point of changing the distance between us… practicing sending her on to things she’s not sure about with me farther away or even behind her and driving her a bit, just with the one lunge line.

If you’re out front and first (or even beside their head and close enough), they feel safe. If they are “alone”-- and the rider on their back doesn’t yet offer any security-- all bets are off.

[Attack]

Update:

I have started ground driving the colt. I sure am glad I taught him to give to the pressure with the lead line. With that experience it was an easy transition to ground driving. We have gone straight, in circles, figure 8’s, stopping and backing.

We have continued with the mounted rider while I walk beside him. The rider is now starting to take the controls of steering and stopping. We began with me controlling him, then simultaneously, and now the rider is cueing him first. So things are going well.

However, the colt is still a little uneasy when I move very far away from him. So we are going to continue to move slowly with him.

[mvp]

Great progress!

Remember that the point of ground driving (at least to my way of thinking about your colt because of my mare) is to teach him that he can derive security from his person even if they aren’t right by his head.

So: How is he about going forward with you ground driving him from a position to the side of him, well back by his hip, even behind him? For my own mare, I’d like to get to the point that I can drive her around the farm this way.

Remember that the point of all this was to set up a safe situation in which he could learn to keep it together without someone at his head. Also, have you tried the old “tie 4 colts to the wall of the arena and ride 'em one at a time while the others wait and provide company” thing? His buddies waiting along the wall are another nice “half way between being led and ridden alone (!)” option.

But it sounds like you are making progress with him. IME and reading a recent article in DressageForum about talented horses being difficult, the consensus is that these are horses where you can’t skip a step and slow foundational work pays off richly later. Just teach your colt what he tells you he needs to know, even if it surprises you a little.

[Attack]

MVP

I have been driving him from behind from day one. It took about 5 minutes for him to figure out what I wanted. He was already well versed at giving to pressure from the lead line wrapped around behind him and me cueing him from the opposite side of the pressure. I can “cluck” to get him going forward so it was easy to get him moving from behind him. Last evening I screwed up the ropes and had them around and between his legs. Lucky for me I have taught him to be calm with the ropes. I even have him leading by attaching the rope to one of his legs. He was great and even “assisted” me in getting the ropes untangled. LOL

We are going to pony him next. Once he is good with that we will then pony him with a rider mounted. I will keep you all posted.

[Attack]

Update:

The colt had his first ride without me on the end of the lead line today. He did very well. I walked and trotted him. He never took a bad step nor did he offer to buck. I did not ask him to canter, nor did he offer to. If he had offered I would have let him. This is my 27th day with him. It would be an understatement to say he has taught me to have patience. I plan to continue to take what ever time is needed with him. I think this colt has a great career ahead of him if they can keep him healthy.

[candyappy]

I wouldn’t ask him to canter until he is solid ( i mean really solid) at the walk, trot. Work on transitions, stopping, starting ,large circles etc… I take a long, long time with my youngsters at the walk then trot before we ever canter and it seems to eliminate the need to back track and re do training.

You have asked a lot of his 2 year old brain in 27 days now build on that before you ask more.