Colvin Civil Suit

[QUOTE=Grazer1;8308414]
Second of all, a huge amount of the money in the sport comes from parents footing the bill for their kids’ riding aspiration. These parents won’t want to spend millions on horse shows just to have their kid disqualified because the trainer was cheating. That’s a powerful incentive for trainers to get it together and leave the needles at home.[/QUOTE]

Sadly, I think this is a little naive. IMHO, those parents want their kids to WIN. They are buying them a WIN. I doubt they really care how the trainer achieves that result for them. Maybe I’m too cynical…

[QUOTE=SomedaySoon;8308451]
Sadly, I think this is a little naive. IMHO, those parents want their kids to WIN. They are buying them a WIN. I doubt they really care how the trainer achieves that result for them. Maybe I’m too cynical…[/QUOTE]

I agree. I mean we’ve got an ordained minister involved in a drugging scandal. One would think someone like Betsee Parker would pave the way for the honest way of doing things but apparently not.

Even if she wasn’t involved herself, she’s knowingly put her horses into a program that is known for drugging the horses. Simply turning a blind eye isn’t enough to absolve oneself of responsibility.

It’s in the comments. ???

[QUOTE=Halt Near X;8308155]
While they don’t explain the reasoning behind the fine/length of suspension, their public hearing document does list the specific infractions. In the case of drug violations, it always lists the specific drug(s). They do not include PP:

And they do need to specifically sanction him for PP/lactanase if they are serious about the “intent” concept. And I don’t think they are. They had a golden opportunity here to tell USEF membership that using these products is in violation of the rules, and they have chosen not to.[/QUOTE]

While I agree with you wrt PP and other “legal” substances, I suspect that it was decided to go with the charges that were more likely to be sustained n appeal, rather than leave a loophole.

The problem with applying the dressage system is that there is a large difference in how mistakes are penalized between the two disciplines.

In dressage, you can completely blow one movement and still win the class if you score well on the other movements and on most of your collective scores (for instance, your horse might spook and take off bucking instead of doing a lengthen across the diagonal, been there). Obviously your collective score for submission would come down as well but it will only affect your overall score slightly. Think of some grand prix horses who in the past haven’t even been able to perform their final halt and yet they can still win.

In hunterland, certain mistakes are supposed to take you out of the running entirely because trying to buck your rider off (not talking playing), hanging your front end dangerously over a jump, etc. are dangerous. The emphasis is on the round as a whole rather than on an average of various factors.

If the hunter can find seven good distances and then nearly flip itself over the eighth jump, by hunter standards that round should not place except in a very small class with very poor company. By dressage standards, if the rest of the round is very good then that eighth jump will just average everything out to a good round and that bucking problem or that hanging front end is just something to work on in the future.

It’s possible that there could be some way to use a scoring system with points broken down for various things, but it would take a lot of thinking to come up with something that rewards what a hunter is supposed to be. I can’t imagine that the shows would look forward to having a room full of people calculating and recording scores, either (dressage tests go every 6-8 minutes with frequent breaks during the day while hunter rounds are about 2 or 3 minutes non-stop, so there would be > three times as much paperwork in addition to requiring more runners to get the results out quickly).

[QUOTE=RanchoAdobe;8308174]
Change the courses and the judging will follow. Take away side, diagonal, side with set related distances and the judges will have more to judge. Ask more of the riders and the horses with less ground lines, unrelated distances, and more variety in jumps. Related distances reward the über quiet hunter who can softly flow down the line without changing pace. More singles and options reward brilliance and will put more emphasis on each jump and not the “pretty” picture between the jumps. There is a reason why the handy is often won by a different horse than the other three over the jumps- it asks for a different type and allows for a different look. I am a firm believer that the small change that could make a big difference is to radically alter the course requirements for A shows.[/QUOTE]

Careful, there. You’re making sense.

[QUOTE=Night Flight;8308478]
The problem with applying the dressage system is that there is a large difference in how mistakes are penalized between the two disciplines.

In dressage, you can completely blow one movement and still win the class if you score well on the other movements and on most of your collective scores (for instance, your horse might spook and take off bucking instead of doing a lengthen across the diagonal, been there). Obviously your collective score for submission would come down as well but it will only affect your overall score slightly. Think of some grand prix horses who in the past haven’t even been able to perform their final halt and yet they can still win.

In hunterland, certain mistakes are supposed to take you out of the running entirely because trying to buck your rider off (not talking playing), hanging your front end dangerously over a jump, etc. are dangerous. The emphasis is on the round as a whole rather than on an average of various factors.

If the hunter can find seven good distances and then nearly flip itself over the eighth jump, by hunter standards that round should not place except in a very small class with very poor company. By dressage standards, if the rest of the round is very good then that eighth jump will just average everything out to a good round and that bucking problem or that hanging front end is just something to work on in the future.

It’s possible that there could be some way to use a scoring system with points broken down for various things, but it would take a lot of thinking to come up with something that rewards what a hunter is supposed to be. I can’t imagine that the shows would look forward to having a room full of people calculating and recording scores, either (dressage tests go every 6-8 minutes with frequent breaks during the day while hunter rounds are about 2 or 3 minutes non-stop, so there would be > three times as much paperwork in addition to requiring more runners to get the results out quickly).[/QUOTE]

Good point.
Though there might be some way of working out the collective marks to “fatally” ding the score of the horse that has a major blowout at one spot, with an otherwise nice round.

[QUOTE=RanchoAdobe;8308174]
Change the courses and the judging will follow. Take away side, diagonal, side with set related distances and the judges will have more to judge. Ask more of the riders and the horses with less ground lines, unrelated distances, and more variety in jumps. Related distances reward the über quiet hunter who can softly flow down the line without changing pace. More singles and options reward brilliance and will put more emphasis on each jump and not the “pretty” picture between the jumps. There is a reason why the handy is often won by a different horse than the other three over the jumps- it asks for a different type and allows for a different look. I am a firm believer that the small change that could make a big difference is to radically alter the course requirements for A shows.[/QUOTE]

Just a reminder that the infractions in question took place at the derby finals.

SPARKLE. That better then keen. We lost the sparkle. The bright expression went poof. Some WBs are dull by nature, many are not so its not just that. But think whoever pointed out that jumping the same course 3 or 4 times in a row with just a different first fence or a single to differentiate one course from the other is part of the problem is dead on target. Creating dull, bored, tired horses even if its stone cold sober is not doing us or the horses any good.

Hunters would be a lot more interesting if more rounds looked like Derbys, handy rounds, or where fences actually looked like hunt fences.

I guess a big concern to me is horses that are given these calming supplements/meds and are that relaxed, would I want to jump them over anything from a safety standpoint…

It’s a good point, but by no means an insurmountable problem. You can have default minimum scores in much the way we use a “40” today. You could have a lower default minimum score for dangerous riding or severe disobedience (which to my mind should score lower than a dropped rail, assuming the dropped rail didn’t come from dangerous riding/jumping style). You make it to the last fence looking like a HOTY and then you stiff your horse to the last fence and he responds by (justifiably) trying to turn you into a lawn dart on the back side (BTDT, got the tshirt to prove it), too bad, so sad. You can score a 35. And I suppose if you really do have a class full of 35s and 40s (I could see this happening in some divisions on some days), there were still some default scores given representing the quality of the individual’s movement, jump, etc. that could break that tie.

Even better, we live in an electronic world, there’s not one reason it couldn’t be programmed and electronically tabulated. I bet it could even be managed as a written tablet program.

It would be a learning curve for some. In the interim maybe they could take out a few lines and and replace with some unrelated singles while judges get up to speed with the new methods. It would do everyone some good. :wink:

[QUOTE=Night Flight;8308478]
The problem with applying the dressage system is that there is a large difference in how mistakes are penalized between the two disciplines.

In dressage, you can completely blow one movement and still win the class if you score well on the other movements and on most of your collective scores (for instance, your horse might spook and take off bucking instead of doing a lengthen across the diagonal, been there). Obviously your collective score for submission would come down as well but it will only affect your overall score slightly. Think of some grand prix horses who in the past haven’t even been able to perform their final halt and yet they can still win.

In hunterland, certain mistakes are supposed to take you out of the running entirely because trying to buck your rider off (not talking playing), hanging your front end dangerously over a jump, etc. are dangerous. The emphasis is on the round as a whole rather than on an average of various factors.

If the hunter can find seven good distances and then nearly flip itself over the eighth jump, by hunter standards that round should not place except in a very small class with very poor company. By dressage standards, if the rest of the round is very good then that eighth jump will just average everything out to a good round and that bucking problem or that hanging front end is just something to work on in the future.

It’s possible that there could be some way to use a scoring system with points broken down for various things, but it would take a lot of thinking to come up with something that rewards what a hunter is supposed to be. I can’t imagine that the shows would look forward to having a room full of people calculating and recording scores, either (dressage tests go every 6-8 minutes with frequent breaks during the day while hunter rounds are about 2 or 3 minutes non-stop, so there would be > three times as much paperwork in addition to requiring more runners to get the results out quickly).[/QUOTE]

I agree with Night Flight. Having competed in both disciplines, I am very aware of the challenges inherent with the dressage format and scoring. Dressage has seen an Olympic Gold medal go to a horse with a major misbehavior in the competition arena. There is currently an uproar against the judging in dressage pitting “classical” against “modern” training methods regarding the rewarding of performances which do not match the USDF or FEI descriptions for proper training and execution of the movements, rollkur and other accusations of abuse at the highest levels of the dressage world…for the same reasons we see it in the hunter world: it is a money making industry with a lot at stake and winning is the goal at any cost.

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8308471]
I agree. I mean we’ve got an ordained minister involved in a drugging scandal. One would think someone like Betsee Parker would pave the way for the honest way of doing things but apparently not.

Even if she wasn’t involved herself, she’s knowingly put her horses into a program that is known for drugging the horses. Simply turning a blind eye isn’t enough to absolve oneself of responsibility.[/QUOTE]

I read Molly Sorge’s column and the transcript from the hearing. What came to mind was the old hair coloring campaign of Clairol…“Does she or doesn’t she?” (drug the horse) “She” being anyone associated with the horse.

Were I showing at that level I would not enter any competitions where those people were entered.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/tori-colvin-shows-us-what-100-hunter-score-looks

[QUOTE=Night Flight;8308478]
The problem with applying the dressage system is that there is a large difference in how mistakes are penalized between the two disciplines.

In dressage, you can completely blow one movement and still win the class if you score well on the other movements and on most of your collective scores (for instance, your horse might spook and take off bucking instead of doing a lengthen across the diagonal, been there). Obviously your collective score for submission would come down as well but it will only affect your overall score slightly. Think of some grand prix horses who in the past haven’t even been able to perform their final halt and yet they can still win.

In hunterland, certain mistakes are supposed to take you out of the running entirely because trying to buck your rider off (not talking playing), hanging your front end dangerously over a jump, etc. are dangerous. The emphasis is on the round as a whole rather than on an average of various factors.

If the hunter can find seven good distances and then nearly flip itself over the eighth jump, by hunter standards that round should not place except in a very small class with very poor company. By dressage standards, if the rest of the round is very good then that eighth jump will just average everything out to a good round and that bucking problem or that hanging front end is just something to work on in the future.

It’s possible that there could be some way to use a scoring system with points broken down for various things, but it would take a lot of thinking to come up with something that rewards what a hunter is supposed to be. I can’t imagine that the shows would look forward to having a room full of people calculating and recording scores, either (dressage tests go every 6-8 minutes with frequent breaks during the day while hunter rounds are about 2 or 3 minutes non-stop, so there would be > three times as much paperwork in addition to requiring more runners to get the results out quickly).[/QUOTE]

It’s a difference, but it’s not necessarily a problem. You can still have events that are an automatic -60, like a stop, if you want. And the intent here is to change the judging, and the results.

Hunter judges already have a card so they are used to writing things down. Instead of an arc they can write ‘8’ with little loss of rhythm. We could eventually electronic systems so that the judge records the rounds on a tablet and scores are calculated immediately.

The idea is to consider the situation from scratch and really think out why each thing is done as it is, and what good and bad side effects there are of those elements.

There is no question that such changes do change the sport and the way the competitors approach it - figure skating provides an obvious example. But they had to do it because of the appearance of corruption that had been created, which judges manufacturing scores to achieve their desired rank.

[QUOTE=MoonWitch;8308575]
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/tori-colvin-shows-us-what-100-hunter-score-looks[/QUOTE]

I didn’t understand then (why this round scored 100) and I don’t understand now. It’s a nice round, yes. Is it completely perfect and untoppable? I don’t think so. The horse could be tighter with his knees, the jumps could be rounder. Not that they need to be to win the class, lovely is good enough, just that I am confused by this as ‘perfect.’

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8308471]
I agree. I mean we’ve got an ordained minister involved in a drugging scandal. One would think someone like Betsee Parker would pave the way for the honest way of doing things but apparently not.

Even if she wasn’t involved herself, she’s knowingly put her horses into a program that is known for drugging the horses. Simply turning a blind eye isn’t enough to absolve oneself of responsibility.[/QUOTE]

I think the only thing Betsee Parker cares about are all those “winning photos” she can get her face into. Now we all know just how “good” she is. Money can buy you a lot of things but it can’t buy you class! Feel bad for all those horses she “cares” so much for. Yeah, right…

This really rings true to me. As I posted up thread, I hate seeing the horses that land in a heap pinned above the beautiful awake ones who also had flawless rounds. Watching the pre-green divisions, I would see legitimately young horses with a lot of sparkle; beautiful jumps and stunning animated canters with wonderful expressions and alot of scope, but they would never pin as high as the extremely quiet barely awake (and much older) horses. It made me sad for the young horses who would have to be forced into a mold so soon in their career to be competitive. I think a lot of them loose their brilliance and scope along the way.

It left me thinking that keenness should be more rewarded, particularly in the green divisions. They should actually be for green horses. Young horses should be fresh and keen and awake. Not bucking, missing changes and being disobedient, just jumping amazing and having their ears up and going forward. Making them too quiet too early (by lunging or drugging or whatever) just wears out good horses too soon and takes away their enthusiasm for the job. It also made me question green eligibility and think there really should be age limits on the green divisions and reinstatement should not be allowed. Judging in these divisions should reflect the age/greeness of the horses and allow them to shine.

[QUOTE=poltroon;8308140]
Those of you who say you cannot train your horses to jog disappoint me. If you can teach your horse to trot out for the under saddle and you can create enough energy to jump around a course of fences with him, you can teach him to jog freely forward in hand. If you want to. If you are enough of a horseman to have your horse respect you on the ground.

I know these horses know how to lunge.

I’m not even asking you to do it without a bridle. :D[/QUOTE]

What I wonder is, if the horse has learned NOT to jog when asked … how do they get from the barn to the covered arena, or the trailer to the barn, or the field to the barn, when it’s raining? :winkgrin:

Although when I first got him my horse informed me he wasn’t jogging anywhere because he didn’t have to, it was the work of minutes to convince him it was more fun and he looked more handsome and important when jogging beside me. We jog all kinds of places because it’s faster than walking, if riding isn’t an option. :slight_smile:

However he does tell the vet and assistants that he doesn’t jog … :lol: … naughty horse!

Also, this thread has grown 3 pages since yesterday. I’m going to have to decide between Life and The Colvin Thread … :o