Coming 2 Y/O Nutritional Advice

[RavtoadOH]

Hi all,

I have a coming 2 year old KWPN (currently at 22 months) that came from a smaller group young horse herd situation from the breeder. I had an extensive PPE done prior to purchase in mid December and both vets agreed that he was thin (I of course agreed). He was only being fed 1.5lb of a young horse formula that I’m not familiar with since he came from another country, and free choice, lower quality hay. He was on 24/7 pasture, but the weather conditions where he came from are quite cold, so there was very little grass in the winter.

My issue now is he is still thin and quite ribby and I am looking to slowly add weight and support healthy growth. He has filled out significantly over his hindquarters, has a bit more topline and is growing rapidly (increase in height of over 2in since mid Dec). His coat has drastically improved as well (had a bad case of rain scald since he was unblanketed in harsh weather) I’ve spoke to a veterinarian on this as well as two equine nutrition specialists (one from Tribute and one from Mad Barn) and have had very conflicting advice. I have multiple decades of experience with raising young warmbloods but was looking for any savvy advice given here to help increase weight but not to the point where I am risking ortho or too rapid growth issues.

Current diet:
Free choice grass hay with a very small amount of alfalfa mix in some bales (I’d estimate 10% max mix) and he is turned out for roughly 12 hours a day, Midwest winter has made most of the grass disappear until March or so.

Grain fed daily: total 4lb Tribute Senior Sport Plus (yes, I know this is a senior formula but was recommended due to added fat and nutrients) 2lbs total alfalfa/oat grass pellets, 2oz total camelina oil, 1oz total Wellpride fish oil, 2 scoops Tribute Tough as Nails (for added biotin, nutrients, and aminos) and 1/2 oz Celtic sea salt.

I’m considering adding in a flake of straight alfalfa with his night hay feed, but since his grain has alfalfa in the Tribute Senior (and beet pulp) and the pellets, I am worried about creating a calcium imbalance. Any thoughts on what can be added or changed to help add weight and have a balanced diet for a young horse?

[Demerara_Stables]

Feed XL has been helpful for me for my 3yo Holsteiner mare.

I’m not a nutritionist, but here’s what she’s on:

Cavalor Strucomix Senior, two 3qt scoops daily
Platinum CJ
2 flakes grass hay, 1 flake straight alfalfa daily

She’s out 24/7 so the grass hay varies with the amount of grass we have in the field (maybe 1 flake grass daily in the spring at the lowest point and 3-4 daily in the fall when we have nothing)

Here’s her one month change last spring when I first bought her

March 30

May 3

[CanteringCarrot]

I’m a bit out of my element here because when my now 3 year old (well, 4 this year) was that age, he just ate free choice hay and/or grass and Buckeye Grow n’ Win balancer. He would do a bit too well at times. He’s still that way. So I’ve gotten used to an easy keeper youngster.

As an aside, I do really like the camelina oil and have used that before with good results.

The other things I’d consider, and did when I imported mine, was making sure his gut was in order (ulcers and just balance wise), and that parasites weren’t a factor.

[RavtoadOH]

The Strucomix is an interested blend! I’ll look into it further. Do you add the CJ for preventative purposes or does she have an issue with OCD?

[RavtoadOH]

I think once the pasture comes in, it will help quite a bit. Unfortunately we had a terrible drought last year that did not help so I am guessing it will probably be closer to April until the grass is growing well. I’ve had WBs in the past that had growth spurts and ended up thinner during. My main concern is I think he was chronically underfed prior to my purchase, so I am somewhat making up for lost time. I know there’s a fine balance between over and under supplementing a young horse that doesn’t have access to quality pasture all year due to weather.

He does appear to have good gut function with no signs of ulcers. Eats well without rushing, no sensitivity around girth or flank, or behavioral issues that point towards ulcers. I am doing a monthly deworm with a broad spectrum dewormer for 3 months in a row as recommended by the DVM nutritionalist. I haven’t noticed a high parasite load in manure, but better safe than sorry. First round was Zimectrin Gold, second coming up shortly is Quest Plus, then going back to the ZG. After the 3 consecutive, I’ll go back to every 3 months.

[JB]

@RavtoadOH

His coat has drastically improved as well (had a bad case of rain scald since he was unblanketed in harsh weather)

His coat issues are due to the nutrition, rather than being unblanketed. He could have easily had the same issues, maybe to a lesser degree, while blanketed, if that set up a too-humid situation under the blanket. The underlying point is - don’t think he has to be blanketed just because of that

@RavtoadOH

I have multiple decades of experience with raising young warmbloods but was looking for any savvy advice given here to help increase weight but not to the point where I am risking ortho or too rapid growth issues.

with the history of low quality hay, the simple change to what I assume will be much higher quality hay, will do the bulk of the work for you. I wouldn’t be quick to push a regular feed on him just yet.

There’s no Senior Sport Plus - do you mean the SS with glucosamine? That’s minimally 5lb for an 1100lb pasture puff, and I’m guessing he is (should be) in the 1000-1100lb range. I’d rather see 5lb of this and 1lb hay pellet

The Tough as Nails isn’t doing much. 3gm lysine isn’t a lot. 61mg copper and 167mg zinc aren’t nothing, though most who supplement copper and zinc for hoof or coat health, do more like 200/600 or 100/300mg. The 20mg biotin is useful IF he needs extra biotin, and most horses don’t.

TBH, I would drop the hoof supplement, and let your better hay, and a good quality fortified feed at the appropriate amount, do the work that his past diet hasn’t been doing.

@RavtoadOH

I’m considering adding in a flake of straight alfalfa with his night hay feed, but since his grain has alfalfa in the Tribute Senior (and beet pulp) and the pellets, I am worried about creating a calcium imbalance

you can safely feed 20-30% of his total forage intake, as alfalfa, without causing issues. Most grass forages could use a bit of help in the Ca department.

@RavtoadOH

Any thoughts on what can be added or changed to help add weight and have a balanced diet for a young horse?

Feed a quality feed (senior or growth, it doesn’t matter, < 20% NSC) and free choice quality hay, and see what you have in a few months. My guess is you’ll have to drop the feed and use a ration balancer

[rememberthenight]

It looks like the tribute should be fed between 6-12lbs a day for a 1000lb beast. I would start by increasing to 3lbs twice a day and reevaluate every 2-3 weeks.

[JB]

@RavtoadOH

I’ve had WBs in the past that had growth spurts and ended up thinner during.

very typical, as you know and as long as they don’t remain too thin, or put in some healthy weight with a bump in calories, it’s no big deal. I’d much rather see a thinner, but well-nourished youngster, than “fat on hay” with no additional fortification

@RavtoadOH

I think he was chronically underfed prior to my purchase, so I am somewhat making up for lost time. I know there’s a fine balance between over and under supplementing a young horse that doesn’t have access to quality pasture all year due to weather.

You can’t really make up for the past, you can only feed what’s in front of you. As in you can’t feed extra copper to make up for what wasn’t there a year ago.

The grass vs hay nutritional supplementation isn’t complicated - add enough Vitamin E and Omega 3 to make up for what’s not in grass. The rest is the same - choose a ration balancer if his weight is good on just forage, or a regular feed if he needs more calories, or a 1/2 serving of each if he’s in between (or ration balancer plus a few pounds hay pellets)

@RavtoadOH

I am doing a monthly deworm with a broad spectrum dewormer for 3 months in a row as recommended by the DVM nutritionalist. I haven’t noticed a high parasite load in manure, but better safe than sorry. First round was Zimectrin Gold, second coming up shortly is Quest Plus, then going back to the ZG. After the 3 consecutive, I’ll go back to every 3 months.

this is not a great idea at all, I don’t know why they would suggest this

Get a FEC done first. See what’s what. Deworming with an effective drug according to that, and since he came from a different country which may have a higher resistance issue, do another FEC 10-14 days later to see what reduction you had. Go from there

Quest Plus alone gets ALL the things (except EL3 larva which isn’t a big deal). So there’s no point in doing ZG a month later. Doing ZG a month before QP isn’t useful either. If the goal is to not cause an enormous kill, then do a FEC first (should be done anyway) to see what’s what, and choose something likely to have decent resistance (like pyrantel pamoate aka Strongid). Then 2 weeks later come back with Quest Plus to finish off everything - adult and encysted strongyles, bots, and tapeworms

Every 3 months after that isn’t appropriate either. After the last deworming above, if it’s moxidectin then at 10-12 weeks, if it’s ivermectin then at 8-10 weeks, do another FEC and see what’s what. If he needs help, give him the help, but continue doing FECs to guide deworming. If he needs help for a bit, he’s still highly likely to start taking care of things on his own, and will need only Spring and Fall dewormings from there out

Internal-Parasite-Guidelines_Updated.pdf

this has all the updated Best Practices based on efficacy/resistance issues, age of horse, and more. You can go right to the young horse sections to read most about his current stage of life.

[JB]

@rememberthenight

It looks like the tribute should be fed between 6-12lbs a day for a 1000lb beast.

Here’s the feeding chart for the Senior Sport

Tribute really makes things confusing by having their calculator which only looks at “full concentrates” vs “ration balancer” and not hte individual feed itself. I always look at the feed’s feeding label, not their calculator.

That said, I don’t disagree with 6lb total as a starting point

[Peggy]

Would you want to wait until an appropriate amount of time after the most recent de-worming before running a fecal. My gut says yes, but you likely have a better handle on this than I do.

[Demerara_Stables]

I add the CJ for preventative purposes for her. All 3 of mine are on it and the older ones are definitely more comfortable on it.

[JB]

@Peggy

Would you want to wait until an appropriate amount of time after the most recent de-worming before running a fecal. My gut says yes, but you likely have a better handle on this than I do.

Yep! And you’re right, I missed that the first ZG was already done. So yes, 10-ish weeks after that date, do a FEC. That’s in the timeframe of Spring deworming, could be a bit early if you’re far enough north (really want temps reliably above 45*), so if the horse is clean/low then, I’d pull another 4 weeks later to see what’s what, and if still clean, do another FEC in August or so, and go from there

Here’s the info from the above parasite pdf, for a horse in this horse’s age range:

During the yearling year, the majority of horses should be expected to exceed 1,000 strongyle EPG,
and a few may test positive for ascarids as well. Treatments should generally follow the protocol for
high strongyle shedders. Based on this, yearlings will often receive anti-strongyle treatments in the
spring, middle of the transmission season, and in the fall. Based on the duration of the strongylid
transmission season (Figure 2), one or two additional treatments might be warranted. Praziquantel
should be considered during the second half of the year.
• Two to 3-year-olds are expected to gradually decrease their strongyle shedding level, although a
proportion will still be expected to be high strongyle shedders. In most scenarios, this age group
will receive 3–4 annual treatments, with praziquantel included at least once in the second half of
the year.

So he’s right in the range of starting to control things on how own. If he’s not been properly dewormed until this point, he may struggle a bit until his immune system can catch up. But he may not, which is why FECs are important for now.

[Warmblood1]

I feed ration balancers, unlimited high quality hay and usually about 5 pounds of alfalfa in some form to my 2+ year old WBs.

I use either Purina Enrich Plus or Triple Crown Balancer. I feed 2 pounds of the Enrich which supplies 1200 IU of vitamin E or a pound and a half of TC Balancer which provides 1500 IU of vitamin E. The feeding instructions for both on the lower ends (such as a pound) don’t really supply you with enough vitamin E. I also supplement with a zinc and copper supplement from Custom Equine Nutrition. Copper is very important for tendon development and again, lower feeding amounts often do not supply enough. The Purina Enrich does not have iron which you may like if you are in a high iron area, but does not have probiotics like the TC.

If a horse is going through a large growth spurt or may be struggling with summer heat and drops some weight, I will add 3-5 pounds of Nutrena Triumph. I usually large growth spurts in there 3rd year. It’s 12 percent protein, 8 percent fat, and is about $18 a bag. It’s an economical source of calories and since nutritional needs are already met, I’m just looking for calories.

I can also get the Nutrena and Purina Enrich from Tractor Supply where I get reward points and can order online and have them load it in my car without having to get out. They also have later business hours. Small wins.

Also echoing getting fecal counts done over just throwing a lot of dewormers at your horse.

[JB]

@Warmblood1

and a half of TC Balancer which provides 1500 IU of vitamin E.

TC Balancer is 1000IU/lb, so 1/2lb is 500IU

It’s also worth noting that often, these feeds provide Vit E at a 50/50 mix of natural vs synthetic. The synthetic is roughly 2/3 the efficacy of natural, so you can figure out a more useful amount provided - 1/2 is at 100%, 1/2 is at 66%.

@Warmblood1

The feeding instructions for both on the lower ends (such as a pound) don’t really supply you with enough vitamin E.

that’s true, and it’s true of most feeds, or they provide just enough to meet the bare bones basic NRC requirement which is only about non-disease “health”

@Warmblood1

Copper is very important for tendon development and again, lower feeding amounts often do not supply enough.

The lower end feed rate usually provides enough to exceed the minimum required by the horse for non-disease health BUT, not necessarily enough for optimal health. I think it’s not a bad idea to supplement a full or even half serving of something like the CEN cu/zn

@Warmblood1

The Purina Enrich does not have iron

It sure does, it’s just not listed in the GA. Many feeds have a pared down GA, and iron is often left out. MadBarn lists it at 697ppm, and if you look at the tag for an ingredient list, you’ll see 1 or more forms of iron, like ferrous sulfate or ferrous carbonate. That said, some feeds don’t ADD iron, but there’s still intrinsic iron from the ingredients. Many, if not all now, of Tribute feeds, have no added iron, but iron is listed in the GA

And others, like Triple Crown, have most of the Fe as intrinsic, but still add some. Why companies continue to add iron is something I don’t quite understand, but many do.

[Warmblood1]

I feed 1.5 pounds of Triple Crown Balancer, not half a pound. That equals 1500 IU. If you reread you will see I wrote a pound and a half.

Vitamin E also depends on how much the horse is grazing and how much of the diet is hay. For a 1000 pound 2 year old, 1500 IU is 1.5 units per pound plus grass which is meeting targeted range for vitamin E also

Also, I have run across feeds where the recommended feeding amount did not meet minimum zinc requirements. I want to say the lowest feeding rate of Purina Enrich being one of them but I may not be recalling that correctly. Came across this issue with many non-ration balancer feeds. Also, many of the products designed to support the tendon and lower limb development of young horses contain high amounts of copper. Hence why I feed higher copper in growing horses.

Good to know that Enrich does have iron and it’s not listed. I also wish iron wasn’t added as a standard.

[JB]

you’re right, my apologies! I did misread.

Yes, the point about hay vs grass has to be taken into account. What I meant was, it’s not up to a balancer or feed to provide ALL the vitamin E a horse requires, let alone for optimal health, since a lot of horses eat a lot of grass, and some eat grass full time all or nearly all year. Feeds, whether a balancer or otherwise, aim to do a decent job fortifying/balancing an average forage - not necessarily hay or grass - the horse they’re serving is eating. Nearly all feeds have more Omega 6 than Omega 3, which doesn’t help the hay-only horse at all, but is likely fine for the horse eating lots of grass. Meaning, they don’t attempt to fix ALL the issues for ALL forages, just most of them for most

@Warmblood1

I have run across feeds where the recommended feeding amount did not meet minimum zinc requirements. I want to say the lowest feeding rate of Purina Enrich being one of them but I may not be recalling that correctly.

My comment on that was incomplete. Most don’t meet minimums for many nutrients when fed at the mininum rate, but that’s not their goal anyway. Their goal is to help balance the average forage, forage which is providing the bulk of nutrients. Hay that’s 3ppm copper is only 30mg of copper in 22lb, which is what an average 1100lb horse eats. His minimum copper requirement is 100mg.

Purina Enrich is 185ppm Cu, which means there’s 84mg in a 1lb feeding. Added to the 60mg in the 22lb of hay, and you’re at 144gm, more than the 100mg the horse needs for “not disease” health. I don’t think I’ve seen any balancer/feed that didn’t supply what was deficient in the forage, to at least slightly exceed the basic requirement, but I’m sure one exists, and I’m sure a forage exists that’s such poor quality that you really need serious nutritiotional fortification. That’s not the average forage though.

No regular feed, or balancer, is supposed to provide even minimum RDA requirements. 6lb of a 16% protein feed is only 435gm protein, not close to the 700gm an 1100lb horse in light to moderate work needs. The rest is supposed to come from his forage, and all but the lowest quality forage will do that.

[Warmblood1]

Right, balancers are intended to balance hay/grass diets. That is assumed. Hence why a lot of people do supplement vitamin E in the winter when diets are largely hay based versus grass. We are moving into Spring, however, and the feeding rates I’ve calculated with even partial pasture are sufficient for vitamin E. I’m not looking at vitamin E solely from concentrate which is what you were originally calculating in the previous reply.

And yes, most feeds and hay meet bare minimum requirements for zinc/copper, but again, we are talking optimal levels, not minimum levels (for me at least), and the supplementation of higher copper to support tendon development in young horses. One might also run into an issue of high iron which might prevent absorption of minerals. I’m not going to drive myself crazy trying to perfect the ratios of iron to copper, zinc etc. So because the zinc and copper range are wide and are beneficial in growing horses, I’m going to supplement regardless.

[JB]

All feeds, not just ration balancers, are intended to help balance the forage. The difference is the calories provided

Yes, copper is very important to structural integrity while growing (and while gestating). Lower feed amounts DO tend to provide enough to also cover what an average forage is providing. What’s not been studied is the optimal amounts of minerals to guarantee no DOD issues outside of genetics, environment, etc. That said, it’s not unhealthy to add a serving of the equine cu/zn supplements out there. At best, it will help a very specific situation, at worst it’s a waste of money (which isn’t a lot in the grand scheme of feeding LOL) At some point, more is just that - more Feed rates for foals, weanlings, and yearlings, are almost always higher per pound body weight, than 2yos and up, for this very reason - provide a higher plane of nutrition needed to support growth.

High iron in the soil absolutely reduces cu and zn uptake by the forage, that’s why it’s not uncommon to see a forage with that 3ppm in my example. I’ve seen a lot of forage analyses and occasionally it’s lower than that, sometimes it’s in the upper single digits, but 2-4ppm has been the most common IME. So that’s what the horse is eating.

For iron, non-EMS horses have a hormone that down-regulates iron uptake when there’s enough in the body, so excessive iron in the forage, which is the majority of US forages, doesn’t result in an iron overload, nor does it inhibit the use of the available copper. At that point they only need more to meet basic requirements or ideally, more optimal levels.

There’s no ratio of Fe to Cu, no matter what some try to say, so definitely no need to worry about that The only ratio of those minerals - Fe, Cu, Zn, Mn - is between Cu and Zn, which is in the 1:3-5 range. That’s why most quality feeds have around a 1:3 ratio, maybe a little lower, maybe a little higher. Most of the forage balancers have that ratio. That’s the ratio I mix my cu and zn together for

[Warmblood1]

We are essentially saying the same thing except I disagree that the copper/zinc supplementation has possibly been a waste for me. At bare minimum levels I was seeing less than ideal coat quality, less than ideal hoof growth and persistent thrush in a horse fed low rates. All improved with supplementation. Sometimes experience beats the bare minimum amount suggested in a textbook. Also in the growing horse, the additional supplemented copper and zinc takes the place of the copper and zinc that would be provided in something like foal Rejuvenade.

[JB]

I wasn’t referring to your situation specifically about supplementation. I was speaking as a generality. I have no idea the cu/zn content of your forage. And, I have ALSO said, several times, that “at best, it’s providing optimal levels of these nutrients”. I always advocate for optimal levels.

The issue is I see people feeding higher amounts of a fortified feed, that plus their hay is providing in the range of 300-400mg copper and 800-1000mg zinc, and they think they STILL need to add another 300-500 because their horse still fades like a normal horse (not talking excessive bleaching).

Yes, sometimes “well that should be PLENTY” isn’t enough for a given horse, but that should be based on excessive bleaching, rough coats, shelly feet (that’s for sure not trim related, so many poor quality feet just need good trimming), scratches/rain rot that won’t go away or keeps coming back, etc.