more important things
Usually, when you select a TB mare for sport horse breeding purposes, the bloodlines are very rarely recognisable in the sporthorse world (except that a TB is a BLOODhorse). The conformation, movement, (free)jumping and temperament are a lot more important factors in making the stallion choice.
I think she has an interesting pedigree and hope Viney or one of the other TB experts will post. Hoist the Flag is popular with eventers.
I haven’t noticed him much in the pedigrees posted here, but Icecapade is my mare’s damsire and she did quite well as a jumper and her half brother evented.
Good luck with her 
I am pretty sure I’ve seen mention that the “Trick” line has made some good Eventers and Jumpers. I may be mis-remembering the disciplines but it does seem to stick that it’s a pretty good sporthorse line.
Hoist the Flag lines are well known for jumping talent. You have some Nijinsky in there – althletic, but can be tempermental. I also agree that Phone Trick is a good line for sporthorses.
She’s linebred to Tom Rolfe and Hoist the Flag, two hardknocking horses, as well as Nearctic and Wavy Navy (I am not familiar with him, maybe Viney knows). Looks good for sport breeding or competition.
Looks to me like this mare should have a lot of jumping talent/athleticism, but there is a possibility she could be more of a pro ride.
Of course, they can all fool you and be the quietest packer or just have no talent at all even with the best bloodlines!
Thanks for everyones’ comments thus far… this mare was on the track in the past, then went thru a rescue, then landed in a home, where, she has actually been schooled in dressage, though not shown… I have not seen her in person, but I have seen video of her and her gaits are very nice and what I can see of her conformation seems solid… Plus, she’s already schooling lots of lateral movements and flying changes, so naturally, I am interested! LOL!
I do hope the TB “experts” here will chime in at some point!
Bold Irish was also the dam of Shenanigans. Tail female line to Shenanigans was exceptional. Irish Trip’s first foal was Dungarven, who was a black type winner. About half of Irish Trip’s foals raced abroad, which means that they were thought to be more turfy than dirt. Dungarven didn’t produce blacktype, and neither did Artelia up to 1995. Can’t go past then with my APR.
I would never call Phone Trick a proven line in sport. One database that I use for FEI results doesn’t even have him listed in their pedigrees, and he’s a 1982 model.
USEF has one 1995 horse listed by Trick Me. It has no listed results, but the owner has another horse whom she shows in low hunters and adult amateurs locally.
Wavy Navy was a mare, the dam of HTF, and she is a three fer where the foundation sires are concerned.
Triple Bend was the grandsire on top of Never Bend Better, who was a sport horse himself and a sport horse sire in Texas.
I wouldn’t call it a particularly good TB pedigree for sport–at least not close up. Don’t know that I’d want to put a reputation on the line by breeding her, but tbs can always surprise you. Of course, also, the pedigree is more important the higher you hope to go with the foal.
If the mare herself is special, there are probably things in the far reaches of her pedigree that came together when she was produced.
Thanks Viney for chiming in with your expertise.
I don’t recall where I heard Phone Trick in connection with sporthorses – but obviously it wasn’t correct!
These are some of my favorite threads and I always learn a lot. And my bad for thinking Wavy Navy was a he!
Sounds like you should just ride this mare and enjoy her, I still think she’s probably going to be a good athlete, and that seems true with your description.
First you look at the horse in front of you. The physical characteristics and talents of the horses in the first two generations are of primary importance. Then you try to figure out where those characteristics and talents came from in the pedigree, and that’s where linebreeding and correlating to results is so important.
There are probably lots of people with Phone Trick in their OTTB sport horses. And given that he undoubtedly has at least a couple of thousand descendants out there, some of those OTTBs will have made their owners very happy. Useful TBs can pop up from anywhere at any time, thanks to the closed studbook which severely limits genetic drift.
The Tricks are pure speed and dirt runners who are very precocious. Right then, you have question whether they are good bets for sport horse breeding.
For sport performance results, my research for who is doing what or has done what in sport is relies heavily on the USEF, FEI and European databases that do publish result information. There are necessarily holes in all those sources if the persons responsible for the horse don’t have or give breeding information to the organizations. However, if a 1982 TB stallion with thousands of descendants hasn’t been credited with a single FEI level event horse who has performed in Europe or North America, he probably is not a good bet as a sport horse line.
There are holes in the databases. For instance, I just looked up Mazel Trick, who was one of the Phone Tricks mentioned in connection with sport. He stood in Kentucky, I believe; then Pennsylvania, then British Columbia. He started his stud career in 2001. At the USEF, Mazel Trick has 4 registered, two of which have FEI passports. One is an event horse who has done one CCI1* and 2 CIC1* (Prelim) where he is consistently in the top ten, along with moving up to Intermediate in 2010, where he is still very consistent and a top ten horse. He hasn’t tried a 2* yet. The other one with an FEI passport is a junior horse, who has shows from all three of the eventing phases, but is mostly an event horse. He’s currently showing Prelim and has done a CIC 1*. Then there is a junior hunter with 2 shows in 2009.
Favorite Trick, another son of Phone Trick, probably the best of the racing Phone Tricks, was used in QH racing breeding and died in a barn fire in New Mexico. FT was a pure speed sprinter who was undefeated as a two year old. He has six listed with him as sire at the USEF. 3 have no results; one had two shows in 2009; another had a child owner who showed very locally with this horse from pre-children’s hunter up to child’s for ten or so shows from 2007 to 2009. Another one had seven shows from 2007 to 2009 with an over 45 owner. this one showed from pre-adult to adult amateur hunter and did not place well in decent competition.
We have very few FEI competitions for jumpers in the United states; and not many more CDIs. But there is no dressage equivalent of the USEF GPs, so jumpers could show all their lives at GP levels and never exhibit an FEI passport or FEI results. This makes relying on the USEF database even more important, and the USEF doesn’t keep all its results available–only back to 2006 this year. They made 2005 not available this January, and what might be in their records from that year and the years before doesn’t seem to be accessible on the internet. Whether the USEF would respond to a direct request for a particular horse in years past I can’t say.
Phone Trick was a good racing stallion with many offspring who dirt sprint. But as a sport horse line, there are many others who seem to me, at least, to have been more consistent with better credentials at what we look for in sport and, thus, better breeding bets.
This!
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[QUOTE=Kwill;5625731]
Thanks Viney for chiming in with your expertise… These are some of my favorite threads and I always learn a lot.[/QUOTE][/B]
:yes:
I guess I should have mentioned along with the tail female to Bold Irish that the double to Hoist The Flag is very good. You might get some attitude, especially with a male, from this double and from the Ribot side; but they are most often very athletic specimens, and Alleged does have more than a few purpose bred chasers with him as sire. Pleasant Colony has had some “byproduct” chasers and hurdlers and eventers through various descendants.
Icecapade is out of Shenanigans, so there is linebreeding to Bold Irish.
Come to think on it, this mare has more broken legs in her pedigree than almost any one I’ve seen. Hoist The Flag broke his in training; Shenanigan’s daughter Ruffian broke hers in a race; and Shenanigans herself died of a two broken legs sustained (like Ruffian’s second one) when coming out of colic surgery.
Not saying this is related to anything, because it’s undoubtedly one of those bizarre coincidences, but it’s INTERESTING.
I focused too much on the Phone Trick side, which is only a fourth of the pedigree. Still, that 25% cuts the odds of the other 75% down enough to be discussed in detail.
I had a stallion by Phone Trick in training for over a year and he never did figure out how to jump…beautiful big sport type in every other way though…
chiming in only because my trainer in NC who loves TBs has had two really really nice Phone Trick babes - for what it is worth - both fancy fancy but PT in gen 1
