Commercial Feed vs. Non-Commercial Feed? (That is the question.)

[Losgelassenheit]

Trying to talk myself off the ledge here, but I figure why not open the polls to some other opinions.

About mid-summer we made the switch from commercial feed (Purina) to a whole food feed program. All of the horses looked the best they ever had up to that point, however the reason we switched was we noticed what appeared to be a variety of issues beginning to develop. Random allergic reactions/hives, certain horses beginning to have extremely wet stalls from excess urination, others with coats turning rough and bristly to the touch, all of the boys with genital summer sores despite worming regimens, fly control, and sore treatment. Those “systemic” issues aside, weights were PERFECT, dapples were visible, top lines and temperament at their ideals.

After consulting with two whole food nutritionists about our concerns, we made the swap, fearful of losing condition, but hopeful that we could nip the developing issues in the bud. Within two weeks, the hives and swellings were gone, urination returned to normal, coat quality changed COMPLETELY to being soft and silky, and all of the summer sores had healed. Even one of our stiff senior horses began coming out of the stall as if he’d already warmed up for 20 minutes. Arthritic limbs no longer snap crackle and pop. But on the other hand, dapples disappeared, temperaments of many were a bit on the spicier side, and to my horror, all of the condition that was so beautifully put on with the commercial feed was disappearing fast. We tried to tweak the program by adding more hay and more fat, but it hasn’t seemed to work, and to be paying mega $$$ for something that I hate to say isn’t doing the full job is driving me insane. While I am thrilled with the overall positive changes “within” the horses, at this point I’m not sure which situation outweighs the other. Horses that look round, dappled, and gorgeous but are falling apart systemically? (Joints, skin, allergies, metabolic). Or, horses having no issues whatsoever, good skin, dry stalls, better coat quality, yet are fit-skinny and lacking that slick hunter show body?

I want to do right by them, but at this point am not sure which part of their physical feedback to listen to. I’m borderline embarrassed by how they look now as opposed to at the start of summer, but I just can’t make myself feel good about sacrificing their overall health which has SO clearly improved for the sake of aesthetics. Any thoughts would be helpful.

[Highflyer]

What exactly are you feeding (grain and hay)?

[Scaramouch]

Can you post before and after photos?

Honestly “that slick hunter show body” usually just means fat. And being fat isn’t any better for horses than it is for humans.

Did you compare the calorie counts of the Purina they were getting and the new diet? If they’re getting at least the same number of calories and they don’t continue to lose weight, this is a complete no-brainer honestly.

[ASB_Stars]

Many years ago, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I ran a program where we had a bunch of boarders. I worked to develop a custom feed with one of the local companies. I changed the recipe for Late Spring/Summer, and Fall/Winter. The horses looked amazing, year round. You CAN do better than the available offerings. I wouldn’t use Purina on a bet, anymore.

[Losgelassenheit]

[QUOTE=Highflyer;8450375]
What exactly are you feeding (grain and hay)?[/QUOTE]

Hay has been unchanged, it’s a consistent high quality T&A.

Formerly, we fed Ultium and Strategy, with beet pulp included in the PM ration.

Currently we are feeding a base of alfalfa pellets and whole oats, together with Renew Gold (rice bran/coconut meal) as the fat source, fresh ground flax, and a vit/min supplement dosed out based on size of horse or pony. We have also exchanged the beet pulp for alfalfa cubes with the PM ration. Overall far more nutrition, fiber, and roughage in the diet, which is a great thing since we have virtually no pasture. I’m just having a hard time processing how their various ailments have improved, yet their overall condition is now suffering.

[Losgelassenheit]

[QUOTE=Scaramouch;8450379]
Can you post before and after photos?

Honestly “that slick hunter show body” usually just means fat. And being fat isn’t any better for horses than it is for humans.

Did you compare the calorie counts of the Purina they were getting and the new diet? If they’re getting at least the same number of calories and they don’t continue to lose weight, this is a complete no-brainer honestly.[/QUOTE]

I could, but quite frankly I’d be mortified. You are correct, they have lost just about every ounce of fat on their bodies. Top lines have withered away, hind ends more pronounced, ribs in your face.

Calories were indeed lower in the new diet, but the increase in forage/hay was supposed to fill in that gap rather than fat (or corn, or molasses…) if that makes sense. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be working, so we increased the ration slightly, but that is when I lost their brains. I wouldn’t say they continue to lose weight at this point. But they certainly aren’t gaining, or filling out the way we need them to.

[IPEsq]

Try adding beet pulp back in and an amino acid supplement?

[Scribbler]

Without photos, it is hard to comment on the condition. They may or may not look as bad as you fear they do.

What quantities (by weight) are you feeding of both hay and grain? What quantities of the old feed were you feeding?

If horses are losing weight, either they aren’t getting enough total calories, or they are missing some nutrient from their diets. Have you had your hay tested? Without doing that you don’t know what you need to supplement. What is the % protein in your hay?

Do you soak the feed at all? I find my horse digests her whole oats much better if they are soaked.

I’m surprised the cost of feeding alfalfa cubes and oats is so much higher than feeding a bagged complete feed. Where I live it is much cheaper.

[Beckham03]

What is the analysis on your new feed? Sounds like not enough protein.

[Palm_Beach]

OP, you’ve been taken for a ride. What do you mean by “whole food” diet anyway? Someone starts talking to me about a “whole food” diet for my horses and I’d roll my eyes and walk away. A forage based diet IS ALREADY “whole food.” Unless you are feeding your horses twinkies and ho-hos you are probably ALREADY feeding a “whole food” diet. That term really has no place in equine nutrition. All commercial feeds are not equal, some are better than others, and there is a very very wide range in what is available. Ultium is a premium feed, and I would not turn my nose up at it. If you are feeding consistent high quality timothy and alfalfa, and the horses are getting it free choice, you should not have to feed a lot of concentrate.

This is what you posted, “About mid-summer we made the switch from commercial feed (Purina) to a whole food feed program. All of the horses looked the best they ever had up to that point, however the reason we switched was we noticed what appeared to be a variety of issues beginning to develop. Random allergic reactions/hives, certain horses beginning to have extremely wet stalls from excess urination, others with coats turning rough and bristly to the touch, all of the boys with genital summer sores despite worming regimens, fly control, and sore treatment. Those “systemic” issues aside, weights were PERFECT, dapples were visible, top lines and temperament at their ideals.”

So what happened mid summer? How long had you been using Ultium and Strategy? All those problems cropping up in all those horses at the same time and you think it was because of the feed? If so, why didn’t everyone using Ultium and Strategy have those problems? THAT is the question.

People also get hung up on the word “processed.” Do you peel an orange before you eat it? Guess what - you just processed it. Do you cook salmon before you eat it? Guess what - you just processed it. Don’t let the “hot button” terms make you think you are not doing right by your horses, or that there is a magic holistic fix. Use common sense and consult sources you can trust.

[froglander]

There is another thread of someone looking for a corn/soy/oat free feed

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?481867-sigh-is-there-such-a-thing-as-corn-free-soy-free-oat-free-grain

One of the things mentioned is needing to add an amino-acid supplement due to not having enough protein by going to a non-fortified feed.

Maybe add Tri-amino or something like that?

[Losgelassenheit]

[QUOTE=Scribbler;8450530]
Without photos, it is hard to comment on the condition. They may or may not look as bad as you fear they do.

What quantities (by weight) are you feeding of both hay and grain? What quantities of the old feed were you feeding?

If horses are losing weight, either they aren’t getting enough total calories, or they are missing some nutrient from their diets. Have you had your hay tested? Without doing that you don’t know what you need to supplement. What is the % protein in your hay?

Do you soak the feed at all? I find my horse digests her whole oats much better if they are soaked.

I’m surprised the cost of feeding alfalfa cubes and oats is so much higher than feeding a bagged complete feed. Where I live it is much cheaper.[/QUOTE]

Trust me, they do. Thick round necks have turned to straight angle \ \ pencil necks. Top lines have dropped off, and hind ends look like ^ with the SI beginning to protrude. :no:

A large reason why we changed was because it was taking SO much of the Purina grain to maintain their weights, though at least they did! For instance, the largest horse in moderate work took approx 10-12lbs of it, but looked fabulous. I was originally happy with the idea that we could feed less of the whole foods while the horse still received the same, if not more nutrition, but now having to increase the amounts, we are getting back up there to the limit of just how much I’m comfortable pumping into a horse, especially now dealing with a whole grain. The same horse, I’ve been told, cannot go any higher than 3 lbs per feeding, and that’s where we are right now (not counting the addition of the supplements).

Everyone gets 1.5-2% of their bodyweight in legitimate T&A (not just timothy branded as T&A). The hay varies between 12-15% protein.

Difficult to do all of the quantities for each horse and pony (there are 13 all together), but we do feed by lbs, not scoops. Generally the nutritionist had us start at half to 3/4 of the amount we were feeding of the Purina, and said that once the transition was made, we’d actually end up feeding about 1/2 the lbs and the horses would maintain. The biggest expense is not the hay cubes or the oats, rather it’s the fat (Renew Gold) which is $45 for a 30b bag. We started at about 1 bag/week. Doubling the fat aspect has now doubled the overall expense, in addition to upping the quantity of oats & alf pellets. The whole food program was indeed less expensive, until we just increased the amounts fed.

Basic feed analysis comparison is as follows:
Protein 13.50% / Ultium 11.7%
Fiber 14.00% / Ultium 18.5%
Fat 11.00% / Ultium 12.4%
Dietary Starch 24.10 / Ultium 10
Sugar 4.20 / Ultium 6

To our whole food program we add fresh ground flax both AM & PM to boost Omega 3, soak the PM ration together with alfalfa cubes (formerly beet pulp, but the cubes have more fiber… yet don’t seem to work as well, go figure), and also supplement with Redmond vit/min salt.

I’m really beginning to feel like a mad scientist in the feed room. If only I could get them FAT again, yes I said it, I would be over the moon with the whole food program. No doubt they feel better, they just don’t LOOK better!

[Highflyer]

10 to 12 lbs/ concentrate for a large horse getting zero pasture is really not that much that I would be concerned. What about using oil for some of the fat/ calories?

[Losgelassenheit]

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8450647]
OP, you’ve been taken for a ride. What do you mean by “whole food” diet anyway? Someone starts talking to me about a “whole food” diet for my horses and I’d roll my eyes and walk away. A forage based diet IS ALREADY “whole food.” Unless you are feeding your horses twinkies and ho-hos you are probably ALREADY feeding a “whole food” diet. That term really has no place in equine nutrition. All commercial feeds are not equal, some are better than others, and there is a very very wide range in what is available. Ultium is a premium feed, and I would not turn my nose up at it. If you are feeding consistent high quality timothy and alfalfa, and the horses are getting it free choice, you should not have to feed a lot of concentrate.

This is what you posted, “About mid-summer we made the switch from commercial feed (Purina) to a whole food feed program. All of the horses looked the best they ever had up to that point, however the reason we switched was we noticed what appeared to be a variety of issues beginning to develop. Random allergic reactions/hives, certain horses beginning to have extremely wet stalls from excess urination, others with coats turning rough and bristly to the touch, all of the boys with genital summer sores despite worming regimens, fly control, and sore treatment. Those “systemic” issues aside, weights were PERFECT, dapples were visible, top lines and temperament at their ideals.”

So what happened mid summer? How long had you been using Ultium and Strategy? All those problems cropping up in all those horses at the same time and you think it was because of the feed? If so, why didn’t everyone using Ultium and Strategy have those problems? THAT is the question.[/QUOTE]

Lots of valid points here, and I greatly appreciate it! The barn was on Purina for about 8-9 months prior and we were VERY happy, as it had been so long since we’d gotten such good results. We were formerly Pennfield customers tried and true, and nothing had been able to replicate those results since their split from KER, but I digress. During the last 4-6 weeks of using the Purina, we started noticing these troubling issues beginning to appear in most, but not all, of the horses. At least 7 of them. We changed the hay first, but still had problems. It wasn’t until vets got involved that they suggested we stop the feed amidst treatments as a precaution due to some of the recent contamination issues. After 48 hours of no grain or beet pulp, and only hay, the issues had calmed. Hives lessened, swellings reduced, and stalls were slightly drier. That was our first alarm bell. The second concern was just the sheer amounts of grain we were feeding. I know Ultium is touted as a feed you can give less of due to the high calorie content, but we were feeding amounts for horses in high performance work to slow and steady hunters just to keep their shape. It seemed like a no brainer at the time after removing the feed caused the issues to lessen. Vets ended up calling it some sort of immune response to the feed or beet pulp (we removed both at the same time), and suggested we look into something else.

I still can’t deny that overall their coats have improved, stiffness and arthritic issues are gone, temperaments are certainly lively. I just have that gut feeling that there’s something missing, as they don’t glow like they used to. And as much as I hate to say it, I feel another trip to the feed store coming on…

[Scaramouch]

I wonder how much of the whole oats are actually being digested vs. passing through the horses intact. Can you tell from the manure if you have empty hulls or if the kernels are generally still there?

Are you limiting the horses’ hay intake to 2% of their bodyweight, or is that all they’ll eat in a day?

[JB]

[QUOTE=Losgelassenheit;8450400]
Hay has been unchanged, it’s a consistent high quality T&A.

Formerly, we fed Ultium and Strategy, with beet pulp included in the PM ration.

Currently we are feeding a base of alfalfa pellets and whole oats, together with Renew Gold (rice bran/coconut meal) as the fat source, fresh ground flax, and a vit/min supplement dosed out based on size of horse or pony. We have also exchanged the beet pulp for alfalfa cubes with the PM ration. Overall far more nutrition, fiber, and roughage in the diet, which is a great thing since we have virtually no pasture. I’m just having a hard time processing how their various ailments have improved, yet their overall condition is now suffering.[/QUOTE]

The problem is you went from a brand generically, and 2 feeds specifically, that some (even many) horses just do not do well on for reasons you stated - they might look “fat and shiny and healthy” but have issues - to a feed system that to me, is lacking. So you just traded 1 problem for another, and it’s not about commercial vs non-commercial.

Moving to the new diet, I’d say you lost quite a bit of nutrition, given how much of the Purina feeds you were using. Protein, lysine, many minerals, etc. That alone easily explains the loss of condition you saw.

I doubt very much this is about a commercial vs non-commercial feeding plan. It’s about nutrition, and the new diet is lacking.

Toplines come from protein and things like Vit E, selenium, and others. Your new diet is likely low in protein and lysine, maybe methionine, and very likely low in Vit E, which is a big deal for horses eating only hay (which has little to none).

So no, not “far more nutrition” in the new diet The new diet is higher in fiber, but that wasn’t necessary, or even going to do anything beneficial, given the hay situation.

The ailments improved most likely - and this is me guessing - because you removed allergens - soy, corn being the more likely culprits. Or at least removed them in significant amounts (allowing for the presence of some in the v/m, and maybe the RG, I can’t recall offhand its fortification.

Me? I’d go back to a commercial diet, but a better quality one. TC in general is better than Purina (IMVHO), though not all of their feeds are ones I’d consider. TC Sr is very nutritious though lower in fat than Ultium (higher than Strategy) but I don’t believe in the “gotta feed fat” thinking that many do, so unless a horse tells me otherwise, I don’t bother striving for high(er) fat, and has known ingredients. Even TC Complete is better than Strategy.

You have many options for feeds better than Strategy (which in particular is notorious for “my horse looks fantastic!” vs “my horses look/feel/act like crap!!”, for whatever reason).

What brands do you have access to?

How much of each of the new ingredients are you feeding, and which v/m are you using?

[suzyq]

Have you run a feed model to make sure you’re giving the horses the right amounts of vitamins, protein, etc? If all is balanced, they probably just need more calories. I’m not sure why you could feed less calories with a new feed program and expect the same body condition score. If you’re feeding the same calories, then they must not be digesting as well, maybe add a probiotic?

ETA I have one horse on ultium and I love that feed for hard keepers. The other is on beet pulp, alfalfa pellets, vitamin (easy keeper). Some hard keeper horses do need a lot of feed to keep their weights.

[2DogsFarm]

OP:
I am no expert, but have fed whole oats for the last 11yrs to 3 sets of geldings.
Originally I fed a 50/50 mix of steam-rolled & steam-crimped, but switched to triple cleaned whole about 7 or 8 yrs ago.
Forage is orchard grass/timothy baled hay fed generously (2%+ weight 3X daily) along with 24/7 access to my medium quality pasture.
Supplemented only with BOSS & Dumor Hoof (specs below)

http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/dumor-hoof-11-lb?cm_mmc%3DSEM--Google--DynamicAdGroups-_-AllSiteTSCCirc1518&gclid=CJzRte-c8skCFYQ1aQodk_8FMQ

All of them have looked fabulous - shiny, soft coats, dappled even in Winter, good hoof horn, no discernible ribs - & kept weight on with the exception of an older (20yo) WB who had to have added fat (Nutrena Boost - 20% fat) through Winter & my Hackney Blimp… errr… Pony,
Vet always comments favorably on their condition.
None seem overly reactive on the diet.

Maybe pare back your mix to basics - just oats, then add supplements one at a time until you see the body condition you want?
What does your vet suggest?
Consider contacting the local university with a large animal program for ideas also.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

JB, you said everything I wanted to say, but said it better.

If they are losing topline I would say it is a protein amino acid issue.

I love Triple Crown Senior. I also use a ration balancer or just a multivitamin for those that get fat on air. Additionally I’m adding vitamin E this time of year.

suzyq also raises a great point. If you don’t want to have the nutritionist at the feed company do the analysis it falls on the consumer to figure out the required nutritional values, the sources and blend and calories needed. Are you low on calories?

Can you feed more hay? I have one horse who hasn’t read the 2% bodyweight thing and just needs more.

[piedmontfields]

OP, I do feed a whole foods diet now (because my barn changed to this). It has taken some tweaking for a number of horses—probably most of all mine! Some of this is because she is a harder keeper; some of it is due to PSSM diet needs.

I do think the amount of food required + the need for additional vit/min, amino acids, etc. can be sobering.

It does sound like you had some specific feed problems; if you go back to commercial feed, it is certainly worth trying something different from Strategy/Ultima.