Compensation- Fair? Above/Below Average?

[kiwihill3000]

I’m a barn manager at a hunters/equitation barn. I’ve recently had a few conversations with others in the horse industry (albeit different job titles) about money, and I got a couple remarks along the lines of “Oh, I would have thought you made more!”. For many reasons (finances being a small component, feelings of being burnt out yada yada being the main ones), I’m lightly starting to think about a career switch, and these conversations about finances sparked interest in figuring out the financial component a bit more. This is my first “REAL” job and so to be honest, I’m truly not sure if I’m being compensated fairly, above average or below average at this job. I hope that this is an ok place to ask about this, as people can be a little funny about money in my experience, but like I said, I don’t have much to compare to. I’m located in New England.

This barn has 28 horses and is about 50% a lesson program and 50% a competitive show barn that routinely attends ‘A’ rated shows with clients. I am salaried at $725 per week, and keep my horse there for free (I pay for all upkeep such as vet, farrier, supplements, etc., things like shavings and hay are included). I also get 2 free group lessons per week. Board at this barn is $1600+ and lessons are $80 each. There are many other barns nearby in which I could board a horse and lesson much cheaper if I did not have this perk. My hours are technically 7am-4pm 6 days per week, although I am generally working until 4:30-4:45. Occasionally later if the vet is there, never earlier than 4. I take about a 10-15 minute lunch break most days. So I’m working a minimum of 54 hours per week, often more. My job description is basically everything except mucking stalls and watering in the morning, there are a couple of people who do that at 6am. I directly supervise 1-2 staff per day (a total of 5 employees). I feed grain 2x/day, hay 3x/day, administer medications and sedation as needed, do laundry, sweep, generally keep the barn looking clean and tidy, do medical treatments, icing and wrapping, and help lesson kids/clients with various things. I work alongside the other employees to pick stalls and paddocks, water in the afternoon, and do turnout/turn in. I am kept quite busy for the entirety of my time at the barn. If you include the price of board and lessons, I feel that I’m being compensated quite well. However, cost of living is very high here ($2100 + utilities for my average apt.), and basically all the jobs I saw when I was looking included a stall for one horse and likely a lesson or two, although I have zero idea how much they were compensating monetarily. If you divide out my salary by hours worked per week (ignoring the perks) I technically make below minimum wage, which is $13.50 in my state (this is legal because my job is considered agricultural). So I’m just really not sure where this falls on the spectrum!

[Scribbler]

First, you will always be underpaid on your first job no matter what the field unless you are recruited out of law school or your MBA into some high end firm.

Second, in horses you will always be underpaid relative to almost every job other than working at McDonalds.

You are making $3000 per month
with perks of $1800 plus $750 per month. The perks count, so that’s compensation of over $5000 per month. I would say $36,000 a year is not bad money for a first job. However no you cannot pay $2100 for your own apartment on that. You need to get your rent down to under $1000 a month, whether that means room mates or a smaller apartment.

Do you have medical insurance or other benefits?

As far as burnout, that’s the name of the game in horses. Honestly the barn manager or barn help jobs (you are more barn help than manager, doesn’t sound like decision making?) are not necessarily a great deal. They are so physically demanding that you may be too tired to ride seriously but they don’t pay enough to get ahead financially. Many peoe have reached the conclusion they would rather do a well paid non horse desk job and have cash and time to afford to be ammies.

[kiwihill3000]

I live with my boyfriend who makes much more money than I, and so we are able to swing it. Unfortunately, the area I live in is just so expensive. Basically anywhere in a 30 minute radius of my work is about that much for a decent place. I may be able to find something cheaper but when I was searching this price was pretty average. I do not have any benefits with this job. I do qualify for free health insurance because my income is below the cutoff.
Thank you for your insight @Scribbler. Non-horsey people in my life do not see the perks as counting I suppose- it’s a strange thing to them somehow? I’m glad that financially it seems I am well-compensated. I do have some decision-making responsibility and am technically “in charge” of daily operations, however I agree that it leans more towards barn work than a true management position. Tbh covid + winter + the terrible weather recently + finances + just generally not being in a super positive place emotionally just seem to be getting the best of me lately, and I’m not sure if I’m burnt out, tired of winter, just generally exhausted or all of the above!

[mmeqcenter]

The “perks” are actually compensation with dollar amounts. They are fringe-benefits which are taxable income. So your gross pay is $5140/month, which is $21-24/hour depending on your hours worked.
Whether or not that is fair is up to you. As you said, if you had a different job you would board somewhere much cheaper, so maybe the $1600/month board benefit is not worth it.

60-hour work weeks, six 9-hour days week after week after week will burn anyone out, regardless of their pay.
You should check your state’s labor laws. Many have rules around number of hours worked and required breaks.

Agriculture employees are not exempt from minimum wage unless they are immediate family members of the employer, engaged in the production of livestock, local harvest laborers paid in piece-related occupations engaged in agriculture less than 13 weeks of the year, or are non local minors who are hand harvesters paid in piece-rated occupations.
Agriculture employees are exempt from overtime pay if their job meets the definition of agriculture in the Fair Labor Standards Act.

[clanter]

@kiwihill3000

This barn has 28 horses . Board at this barn is $1600+ and lessons are $80 each.

so this barn has an income of of between $40,000 to $50,000 a month ? … you may want to ask for a raise

[sheep_with_a_gun]

@kiwihill3000

Non-horsey people in my life do not see the perks as counting I suppose- it’s a strange thing to them somehow?

If you didn’t have this job would you still be spending $640/mo on lessons and $1600/mo on board? (I know you said you could pay less for board, but would you?)
If the answer is yes, then explain the benefits to nay-sayers that way. It’s money you’d be handing your barn (or another) anyways.
If the answer is no, then that probably explains why they don’t fully appreciate the compensation - with a different job you could be pocketing that extra cash.

[GraceLikeRain]

@clanter

so this barn has an income of of between $40,000 to $50,000 a month ? … you may want to ask for a raise

By what logic?

The barn has 5 staff members, standard grain/hay/shavings/etc expenses for 28 horses, and is paying farrier/vet/etc for 14 lesson horses. Then of course there’s the level of farm maintenance that comes with a place able to charge $1,600 in board and the property taxes, insurance, utilities, and the list goes on.

They may well have close to that coming in each month but that’s not what’s left after expenses are paid.

OP that sounds like a pretty fair compensation package for the industry. It might be helpful to consider what’s next. If you want to stay in horses, is this opportunity prepping you with the skills you need for what’s next? If you don’t want to stay in horses, do you feel like your experience can be framed in a way for whatever non horse job is next?

[mmeqcenter]

@GraceLikeRain

@clanter

so this barn has an income of of between $40,000 to $50,000 a month ? … you may want to ask for a raise

By what logic?

The barn has 5 staff members, standard grain/hay/shavings/etc expenses for 28 horses, and is paying farrier/vet/etc for 14 lesson horses. Then of course there’s the level of farm maintenance that comes with a place able to charge $1,600 in board and the property taxes, insurance, utilities, and the list goes on.

They may well have close to that coming in each month but that’s not what’s left after expenses are paid.

Clanter did say income, which I took as gross income, they didn’t say profit. $1600x28 = $44,800 per month income on board alone. Then there’s lessons and training fees.

I myself did not read “50% show barn 50% lessons” to mean there are 14 lesson horses owned by the farm. Lesson strings that big are far and few between these days, and lessons can easily be taught on leased horses, boarder horses that allow them to be used, or a student’s own horse. Half of your stalls taken up by horses you have to feed, when you’re charging $1600/stall for boarders, is a huuuuuge bite to your potential income. If that’s the case at this barn, whew I hope they’re teaching a crap ton of lessons.

[lenapesadie]

I think you need another day off. Or at least a half day. One Saturday a month. Something.

The salary seems pretty decent for the industry, but the time off is on the skimpy side.

[mommy_peanut]

@lenapesadie

I think you need another day off. Or at least a half day. One Saturday a month. Something.

The salary seems pretty decent for the industry, but the time off is on the skimpy side.

I agree with the above.
However, being that Saturday’s are probably one of the busiest days of the week at a barn, maybe ask for a different day off midweek.
I would ask for either an additional 1/2 day of every week or a full day every other week sort of thing.

[Snowdenfarm]

This is why I open our books to our employees. All they see is the money coming in. They do not understand the costs of owning, insuring, staffing and maintaining a property until they see it for themselves. Still shocks me. Seems like we should be rolling in it, but 14 years in and we are still in the hole from investments we have had to make to maintain the property and attract customers.

[TMares]

Being busy all the time isn’t being productive.

Rearrange your activities to take a 30 minute lunch every day. Every day!

You need a day off somewhere, when are you off?

[Ruth0552]

Well, number 1, minimum wage went up to 13.75 on January 1, FYI. I’m not sure about the agricultural exception for minimum wage, as some states have some fishy rules about such things. Municipalities are exempt from minimum wage requirements around here, which means local teaching assistants and other town employees are mostly starting below minimum wage, if that makes you feel any better.

The high end board and lessons certainly does make your compensation package more lucrative. I’m glad you have health insurance. If you are young enough, you should still be covered on your parents? Are you getting paid in cash or on a payroll? If taxes are being taken out, that cuts into your pay, but if you aren’t paying taxes, that opens up a whole different issue. If you are on payroll, are you an employee, or are they classifying you as an independent contractor, which would certainly not be ethical in this situation? I know some barns do that and then send you a 1099 at the end of the year and you owe a boatload in taxes. If you aren’t on payroll or paying any taxes, you also aren’t paying into social security and have 0 retirement right now. Which is ok when you’re 22, not okay when you start to age. That is not a viable long-term plan.

I think you are facing an issue that a lot of people in your position face. They get burnt out because of the hours and the pay and end up leaving barn management to do something non-horsey or in a more business setting so they can have things like good health insurance, retirement, still be able to function physically at 35, and gosh, I don’t know, own a horse. Do you have a college education? Honestly, if you do, and you are already feeling kinda burnt out, you should probably start looking for a different job. If you don’t, now is a great time to look at taking some classes online, and to think about what else you might want to do with your life. There are some really great nursing programs at a lot of the community colleges and tech schools that are CHEAP, short and get you into a decent paying medical field.

I wonder what your current job would say if you said that you’d like to move your horse to a cheaper boarding facility and increase your pay accordingly? I have a feeling they wouldn’t feel that increasing your pay $1600/month is the same, but also feel that they are giving you $1600 now.

[Scribbler]

The huge intangible benefit to this job is being at a high end barn and on the inside of the barn. If you are an ambitious rider, and have the energy after your job, having two quality lessons a week and being onsite to ride right after work ends is a huge plus. This year is anomalous in that shows have been widely cancelled, so you aren’t experiencing the true schedule and potential opportunities of this kind of barn.

So: is this job allowing your riding to progress by being in a top end facility? If yes, that’s a huge plus and probably the whole point.

If not, why not? Are you too tired after work? Is the barn cheating you out of lessons? Or are you just an average recreational rider that doesn’t really want to be in big h/j program? All of these things make the job much less attractive. I know that even at age 21 I wouldn’t have the stamina to do your job all day, or the desire and guts to be in a h/j program, which is why I quit riding, went to college, got a professional job, and am now a happy middle aged ammie doing a bit of dressage, a bit of back country, and a bit of trick training all on my own schedule. I self board, but I can’t imagine feeding 20 horses every day.

As far as jobs go, it’s always a good idea to figure out how to work smarter, not harder. Reduce your steps. Figure out routines. Resist the urge to be constantly dusting and polishing. I understand that an $1800 a month h/j is going to have higher standards than I’m used to in terms of aisles swept and blankets neatly hung. Also I realize that most fast food places want to see you busy even during slow times, and you are expected to keep mopping or cleaning the soda fountain I til a customer turns up.

But you are not working in McDonalds. You have a fair amount of autonomy in how you organize your day. I think once we start to get stressed out in our jobs, it’s easy to get into habit patterns of adding more and more chores that keep us too busy.

I would suggest you take a watch to work and time your tasks for a few days and write down the times. As you do this, also look for ways to save steps and to streamline tasks. And look for tasks that are redundant. Also look for places where you may be taking on too much of other people’s jobs. Maybe you should do less afternoon stall picking and let your barn girls do more, even if they are slow. Maybe you need to set a limit on the more demanding clients request, and not let them pull you into time suck conversations. Maybe you need to write out your daily schedule and try to stick to it.

The aim is to carve out a good one hour lunch break for yourself where you can sit down, eat lunch, walk off the property if that helps, play with your phone, read a book, whatever. And get you on your own horse by 4:30 every day.

There is no benefit to self exploitation, and barn work is never done. Figure out how you can hit all the basics and do a good enough job.

That said, it is also possible the job is too big for one person or is too big for you with your personal level of fitness and physicality. But try to do your own task analysis first, carve out lunch break, and see if that helps.

And really think about whether this job is advancing your riding, whether you really want to advance your riding etc.

[goodhors]

Just out of curiosity, are you getting Social Security paid? Taxes with held, possibly returned when you file your taxes? The SS can be paid by the Employer, yourself or shared. This is really important, that someone is paying into the system in your name. Benefits paid to you in old age, are measured by what you have paid into Social Security over the years. There are a great many horse folk employees, self-employed folks that do not pay in each year. Kind of devestating to learn they get nothing to live on as old people, on food stamps and welfare. Even paying in, those minimum wage jobs are not building a big total to draw from in the future.

Seeing some great horse folks age and have nothing when they can’t earn anymore, is painful to watch. Watching them and others continue to work, maybe crippled up, because they can’t survive without those earnings, is almost worse.

So do look at all the financial details which will affect your future, when doing the numbers. And any money saved now, invested, can be growing and multiplying for your old age. Consistant saving of even small amounts, on a regular basis NOW, is much more beneficial than thinking you will save, invest big sums as you make more earnings as things go along. That old compounding feature in saving up. The years go by faster than you would believe! Never get around to consistant saving, so you have nothing when you want to quit working.

And do the timing of jobs, get more efficient! There is always a better way of doing things, but we get in routines and find it hard to change. There are probably Apps that make a pattern of your daily route that might work for you. When in school studying efficiency, we had paper pattern layouts for a job with walking needed complete it. Another student drew our pattern of travel, timed us. Then the papers were compared and critiqued to improve travel lines, time needed to get things done. Quite eye opening. One older woman at work said she always assigned a new job to the lazy guy, saw his shortcuts, time saved, while still getting everything needed done. A lazy person wants to be finished, but knows every part of the job needs doing because they wIll be checked up on when finished. She said she learned a lot watching him, changed how she looked at a task and time needed to complete it!!

[kiwihill3000]

Thank you all so much for your wisdom and for your understanding! I think that the whole “horse world work ethic” gets into my head more than it should- you know, the expectation that the work until you practically drop, if you’re not working every millisecond you’re lazy, all that stuff. I feel that that sort of a work ethic in the horse world has been drilled into me, and I think that it does absolutely apply to this job (aka it’s what my boss expects), but that I also put it onto myself more than I should. I feel guilty taking a longer lunch break, guilty when I pull out my phone for 2 seconds to check the weather when I’m considering what to blanket horses in and the boss sees me on my phone, etc.
I will say, yesterday lessons were until 6pm with a guest instructor that teaches weekly. Usually they are until 7pm and the last lesson is a woman who’s been around forever and closes up the barn on that night, however she was away. It was approved via my boss that someone else would close up after that last lesson, however that person did a poor job of it apparently. My boss relayed to me this morning that she expects me to stay until the last lesson if a situation like that arises in the future (aka spend an extra 3+ hours after work, not getting paid, just to make sure the doors are closed, lights are off, etc). I wondered if maybe it would be okay if I left and had dinner or something and came back at the end of that last lesson to make sure things were all set, and while she didn’t directly say no, I got a stern look and a “Well I’ve spent many long nights here waiting around to make sure everything is all set for the night…”. I mean, yeah, but you own the place… and yesterday you just spent the entire day at home while guest instructor taught for you… was my thought. I don’t know, maybe I’m being selfish with my time, but I want to get paid for the hours I work at least. I’m happy to stay late on a night being unpaid if a horse is colicking for example, but just to close up the barn after lessons? I feel like guest instructor or BO could handle…

[kiwihill3000]

@mmeqcenter, @lenapesadie , @mommy_peanut @TMares Thank you for validating that the hours are long… I feel almost guilty when I think to myself that I’m working too much, like I need to just suck it up, it’s the horse industry, but hearing others chime in that yes, I am working a lot and yes, it’s normal to feel burnt out after a while of it does make me feel much better. Unfortunately, with the way that this barn is run I don’t see how I’d be able to take any more time off. Just thinking about breaching the topic with my boss… I can already feel her getting pissed. She insinuates occasionally that I should be very grateful for the perks of this job, and on one occasion I was angrily told that I really didn’t have it that hard when, at 4pm (when my job is supposed to end), I sat down on the bench in the lobby for a few minutes to have a drink of water and apparently looked exhausted. I get Mondays off, and on that day the barn is closed to all clients and a different staff member does the bare minimum with feeding, etc.
@clanter This barn primarily gets their income from shows. With Covid + they don’t show for a few months during the winter, the budget is actually very tight. I’ve been told that BO does not have much extra cash available and we’ve had to be a little more stingy with $. There actually are 14 horses that BO owns. Most lesson horses, a couple that I’m honestly not sure what she’s doing with.
@sheep_with_a_gun I definitely would not be spending that kind of money if I did not have this job. I think I could find board in the area for probably about half at a similar facility (not A show barn, but barn with an indoor, outdoor, etc).
@GraceLikeRain Thank you for your insight! I do think that this job can be framed in a way that appears quite positive to non-horsey people (and likely horsey people too).
@Ruth0552 and @goodhors Thank you so much for your wisdom! Unfortunately, I am not able to be on my parent’s insurance. I am paid on payroll, and I am paying taxes. My paychecks are $578 after taxes are taken out and I am classified as an employee with social security taken out. My mom is great about financial things and has made sure I’ve started saving now. I’ve got a savings account that I put $ into weekly and IRAs. I do have a college degree (B.S. in Animal Science, Pre-Vet concentration). I decided that vet school was not something that I wanted to do and never even applied. Still not for me I don’t think. I do have that very science-heavy background though, although I’m not sure what exactly I’m qualified to do! I was told that if I didn’t have my horse there I’d get paid an extra $75 per week… which I’d like to make but it’s not worth it because there’s no way I’d be able to find board in this area for $300.

@Ruth0552

I have a feeling they wouldn’t feel that increasing your pay $1600/month is the same, but also feel that they are giving you $1600 now.

You nailed it!!!

@Scribbler I felt this way at the beginning. I was a somewhat ambitious rider, looking to vastly improve my riding and jump bigger and all that stuff, but no real show goals. Lately however I’ve had a combination of not so great lessons, and been freezing and exhausted at the end of the day and so I have not wanted to ride my own horse most evenings, much less take advantage of any other riding opportunities. I think the terrible winter weather is definitely playing into these feelings. I have one lesson a week with an outside trainer that teaches here and she is AMAZING. Literally, life changing, best teacher I’ve ever had. She GETS me and my horse. When I make mistakes I learn exactly why it was wrong, and exactly how to fix it and it’s great. When the main trainer (BO) teaches my other lesson it’s… not great. I leave the lesson feeling like I rode poorly every lesson when I ride her horses, and I don’t feel that she understands my horse at all when I ride him.

[Gardenhorse]

That story makes it clear that your boss is taking advantage of you. You’re going to have to start standing up for yourself more or it will just continue. If she asks you to do things that weren’t part of your original agreement, you need to ask for compensation. “I’m sorry, but our agreement is that I work from X to Y hours. If you would like me to stay 3 hours late on Wednesday, then which day would be best for me to leave 3 hours early?”

[kiwihill3000]

Yeah… but see then I mentioned to another one of the trainers there (only a couple years older than I, teaches the beginner lessons, has been at this barn forever and had my job for a while) and she acted as if I had 5 heads and had an attitude of “well of course you’d stay, it’s the job!”. Like I had suggested I don’t feed the horses that evening because my day had gone long and it was after 4 by the time I was ready to feed or something. So this is where the horse industry expectations comes into play I suppose, and then I’m feeling almost guilty as if I’m having a poor work ethic by not wanting to stay like this woman apparently does

[mmeqcenter]

@kiwihill3000

My boss relayed to me this morning that she expects me to stay until the last lesson if a situation like that arises in the future (aka spend an extra 3+ hours after work, not getting paid, just to make sure the doors are closed, lights are off, etc). I wondered if maybe it would be okay if I left and had dinner or something and came back at the end of that last lesson to make sure things were all set, and while she didn’t directly say no, I got a stern look and a “Well I’ve spent many long nights here waiting around to make sure everything is all set for the night…”. I mean, yeah, but you own the place… and yesterday you just spent the entire day at home while guest instructor taught for you… was my thought. I don’t know, maybe I’m being selfish with my time, but I want to get paid for the hours I work at least. I’m happy to stay late on a night being unpaid if a horse is colicking for example, but just to close up the barn after lessons? I feel like guest instructor or BO could handle…

Nope.
Nope.
Nope.

This is the BO taking advantage of you, plain and simple.

You’re absolutely right, she’s the barn owner. If SHE wants to stay an extra three hours, or come back later to check that barn is closed up properly, SHE should do so. Expecting you to do so without additional compensation is not fair, and would be a big “absolutely not” from me. The person that did a poor job should be faulted for it, not you.

You absolutely deserve a full lunch break, and a few 15 minute breaks in between.

The fact that she values the board-benefit at $300/month when board at her barn is $1600 - I’m not sure that’s quite appropriate. Per the IRS:

fringe_benefit_fslg.pdf

All-in-all, this exact situation is why so many barns have high turnover rates with employees.