Complicated Horse Pricing

[OverandOnward]

In this saga …

• Whatever her motivations, trainer imported a going show jumper with a successful record at 1m+, ridden by an able amateur.

What didn’t happen in this saga …

• Trainer gives the horse a proper transition after shipping to the US.

• Trainer gets another good amateur rider, or a pro, to take this horse to some shows and reestablish the record it had in Europe.

• Trainer works through her network to find a buyer who will carry on with this nice warmblood imported show jumper. For a price possibly above 100k, but given his age probably in the mid to high fives.

Sometimes looking at what would be normal to happen, that did not happen, can also throw some Potential insight into a situation.

Why this trainer put the horse on a road to a ruin of a fine record is a mystery. Knocking 10’s of thousands off the horse’s value.

Re-tracking the horse to an inexperienced amateur does make a kind of sense, but in a sinister way. Frankly.

[Bogie]

As others have said, do not spend another dime trying to diagnosis the issues of a horse that doesn’t belong to you. I can only imagine how much $$ you spent on an extensive PPE.

ETA: I had a similar issue come up years ago where the horse was very slightly off. Owner said it was thrush. I went ahead with the PPE with the understanding that there was something wrong with that hoof/leg, she was on the hook. We did that leg first. Horse had a fractured sesamoid. In retrospect (and talking to other people who had bought horses from her), I’ve always thought she knew there was an issue beyond thrush but probably hoped I wouldn’t do an extensive PPE on the horse.

This is where the trainer/owner should step up.

[OverandOnward]

I suspect that, whatever the trainer’s original plan for this horse, when the horse actually arrived she decided to give it at least a quick try at home and see what she had.

Whatever she saw, she may have realized right away that she had a damaged item that could not be returned to the seller.

If she is truly an experienced veteran of the horse world, it would make sense that she would immediately pivot to Plan B.

If the hypothesis is correct that she knew early on about serious problems, she may have decided that she wasn’t spending anything on diagnostics. Just trusting to her own experience and instinct

I don’t know if it is customary for buyers of European imports have some sort of clause to protect them in the case of such an eventuality on arrival. Or if it is the case that once the horse is in transport, the sale is completed and the buyer has no more recourse. It would be hard to contest a European seller’s insistence that the horse was healthy when it left.

Whatever the case for this particular transaction, we seem to know at least part of what she did once she realized that the Horse had a serious problem – of course hypothesizing that she knew.

Because what she did makes absolutely no sense in any other context. There is no point for an experienced trainer to ruin the record of a genuine show jumper. That could’ve been sold in the high-fives, at least, with better riding and a better US record

USEF horse showing is expensive. I don’t know if she or the rider was paying for the shows, but my guess is that it was the rider on some sort of lease. If trainer keeps saying that problems are the rider’s bad riding, then that could lead to endless training sessions to fix – something. But bad riding should be fixable by a good trainer/ instructor.

Eventually the US show rider may have said ‘enough’. Horse is repurposed into the ride for the new ammy in the barn.

And here we are.

All speculation and Hypotheticals, of course.

[kaya842]

OP, you gotten excellent feedback on this thread. I feel for you, truly. I want to say, though, that nearly all of your experience in this saga is not the norm. Horse shopping can be stressful, but typically it’s a very fun and happy endeavor. I hope you aren’t turned off the sport as a whole from this experience. I think the suggestions to try some new trainers/ programs during your 6 months away would really do you some good (could be a good time to try another discipline even!).

[Linny]

Sorry to join the “pass” crew but there are too many issues to move forward.

If you go horse shopping for a horse you plan to jump courses on, you JUMP COURSES when you try them. Your trainer not having you do anything but grids (setting horse and you up for success) is a red flag. A trainer who imports “potential GP horses” has connections enough to find an appropriate rider/situation to move a horse along. Unwillingness to use such connections makes me think that they knew this horse was a very unsuited to jumping big sticks.
Horses with physical or fear issues over big jumps can be successful at lower heights, which face it is where most riders are anyhow BUT it takes a guidance form a patient rider/trainer.

Even before the KS diagnosis I’d pass, but now with that knowledge I’d not only pass but look for a better situation.

You mention that you are moving temporarily to a new area. Consider posting on here for a barn in that area. There are some very experienced people on this board, many of whom you’ve heard from on this thread. When you return to your current location, do the same. Armed with some hard earned experience, you can choose to try a different barn or return to the current situation, which doesn’t sound ideal.

Also, BTW as the person who paid for the PPE, YOU own the records, images and reports that it contains. For the sake of the horse’s future you may wish to share them with the seller/trainer but you don’t have to. Consider that fact that this diagnosis was known to the seller in all future dealings with him/her.

[bingbingbing]

OP - hard pass for many reasons.
Including your post from last year.

Trainer says I’m ready for my first horse, but I have doubts - Off Course - Chronicle Forums

[carrotgirl]

I would like to clarify, it was my idea to buy this horse, and trainer has told me I can pass on him so I’m not exactly being pressured into this. Also, the rider that was riding him is a pretty skilled ammy, my trainer just chalked it up to “bad horse/rider chemistry”. I was able to do a care lease because, at the time, I was financially supporting my parents when they were buying a house and at that exact moment couldn’t fork out a lease fee. Now that that’s over, and that my husband took a liking to horses & is finanically supportive in horse buying, we are now ready to purchase. We are typically conservative with money, but horses changes things, lol. (No, husband would not be riding this horse) Overall, my trainer did me a favor because I wanted to lease but couldn’t pay the fee.

My trainer was weary about the PPE, and balked when she heard the fancy vet I was taking him to, and told me not to let the vet do a bunch of x-rays. Which was an obvious red flag. I loved this misunderstood good boi so much, and with his complicated history, I needed answers. Even if it meant I wasn’t buying him. You guys, I started sobbing in that exam room.

Also, this veterinarian has a 1-5 grade kissing spine scale, I’m not sure if that changes much.

The interesting thing, no one at my barn knows much about kissing spine, and has no clue about the severity of it. They’ve mentioned before they’re most concerned about the naviculars when doing their vetting. So, my trainer thinks the vetting went well, and is still saying the horse refused jumps because of the small shoe sizes. I’m curious if I should educate, or just leave it alone.

I talked to the vet personally and he had an interesting idea. If they would put it in writing to guarantee my money back or trade me out for a different horse if this horse were to start refusing jumps with me. He said if the horse was free or cheap, surgery/injections may be worth the gamble.

My heart is with this horse, y’all. I really just want him to have a good home where he gets pets and treats, and gets told he’s a good boy. He’s very affectionate so he deserves it. But I understand this is the first non-lesson horse I’ve ever ridden, and with how sweet he’s been, of course I would fall in love with him. But, there are so many horses out there.

Thank you all for all of your advice, y’all have been amazing! You guys have opened my eyes to the bubble I’ve been living in. I swear some of you guys must be FBI agents, lol

[GraceLikeRain]

@carrotgirl

He said if the horse was free or cheap, surgery/injections may be worth the gamble.

Gosh that’s horrible advice. This trainer has the skills and connections to import a Grand Prix prospect but hasn’t heard of kissing spines but you’re supposed to educate them and then convince them to write a contract where you invest all of the money and energy and if it doesn’t work out they’ll have held on to your money and will give it back or will give you a sound horse despite having you ride a horse they knew wasn’t sound.

Walk away. You can’t save this horse and your trainer has to be living under a literal rock to have this level of horse experience, be respected, and have not heard of kissing spines. I’m calling BS on either their actual skill set/background or their feigned ignorance.

[carrotgirl]

It was a final option at the end of a long text. Copied and pasted from vet:

"kissing spine is definitely a dealbreaker for a lot of people. This horses changes were not that severe. However, knowing what you just told me, I don’t think I would pursue surgery. I would pursue a different horse just sounds like too much of a risk, knowing this history. if you were wanting a horse just to flat around that’s one thing but knowing that they tried and he refused for two years straight jumping . I’m fearful you may get the same result. If you are anticipating jumping this horse, I’m not so sure this is a good idea. if you were getting the horse for free surgery may be worth the gamble but if you were paying much for it, I’m not sure I would feel comfortable making the purchase.

I think the history you just told me means more than anything we found on the x-rays.

Only other option would be if they would guarantee you your money back or trade you out for a different horse if this horse were to start refusing jumps again."

[Horsegirl_s_Mom]

@carrotgirl

If they would put it in writing to guarantee my money back or trade me out for a different horse if this horse were to start refusing jumps with me.

In that case, just continue the feed lease.

I think you don’t want to become the legal owner of this horse. He may become unrideable if the KS progresses, and then you have a very expensive dependent on your hands for years to come.

[carrotgirl]

Overall, will be continuing my horse search and I’m excited to learn from other trainers as well in my new place. Owning this horse will likely be a heartbreak.

[LaurieB]

@carrotgirl

Overall, will be continuing my horse search and I’m excited to learn from other trainers as well in my new place. Owning this horse will likely be a heartbreak.

Good for you for persevering after your trainer was wary of the PPE and didn’t want you to do x-rays. (I’m guessing she already knew what you would discover.)

I’m sorry this horse didn’t work out for you, but the heartbreak from walking away now is less now than it would have been in a year or two, if you were left with a horse that had become unrideable.

Best of luck with your horse search (hopefully with a different trainer)!

[libgrrl]

@carrotgirl

The interesting thing, no one at my barn knows much about kissing spine, and has no clue about the severity of it. They’ve mentioned before they’re most concerned about the naviculars when doing their vetting.

Sounds like a really old school trainer. Everything was blamed on navicular back in the day.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

@carrotgirl

The interesting thing, no one at my barn knows much about kissing spine, and has no clue about the severity of it. They’ve mentioned before they’re most concerned about the naviculars when doing their vetting. So, my trainer thinks the vetting went well, and is still saying the horse refused jumps because of the small shoe sizes. I’m curious if I should educate, or just leave it alone.

I’m sorry, but there is absolutely no way a trainer who is supposed to be as experienced as you say she is doesn’t understand kissing spine or would think a vetting went well if KS showed up. Even if a horse was ASYMPTOMATIC and jumping happily, a KS diagnosis is a big-ass deal. (There was a poster in another forum who had this happen, I believe…again, this was with an asymptomatic horse with a much milder diagnosis than your horse, and there were still many experienced horse people telling her not to buy him.)

A vet is a vet. He is not an expert in horse selling or buying. Entering into some confusing trade with your trainer (which I have never heard of), a trainer who has repeatedly shown herself not to have your best interest at heart, is absolutely not the way to go.

Please, please try riding with another trainer and try riding some different horses. You sound like an incredibly kind, sweet person, but unfortunately your trainer has really taken advantage of this fact. I understand you think she did you a favor when you were short of cash, but trust me, she understands that your situation has changed.

[Sdel]

@carrotgirl

Also, this veterinarian has a 1-5 grade kissing spine scale, I’m not sure if that changes much.

The interesting thing, no one at my barn knows much about kissing spine, and has no clue about the severity of it. They’ve mentioned before they’re most concerned about the naviculars when doing their vetting. So, my trainer thinks the vetting went well, and is still saying the horse refused jumps because of the small shoe sizes. I’m curious if I should educate, or just leave it alone.

If you seriously want continue down this road, do get a second opinion on the back with someone who is actually knowledgeable about kissing spine. Honnas mentioned above is a great choice, and I do not think he’ll refuse to consult X-rays long distance because he does a lot of long distance ship-in business for kissing spine. But any university level facility should also be able to provide a second opinion.

[IPEsq]

The purchase price is one of the cheapest things you’ll do with horse ownership in the long run. But unless you want to part with $50k just to give him a good home with pets and treats, do not buy the horse. And don’t gamble with surgery and rehabbing a back issue as a newer rider and first time owner. When you are done with that, you may still have a horse that won’t meet your goals and you will be financially and emotionally a lot poorer and risk getting hurt in the meantime as well. And that will involve also moving this horse into an entirely different program and a lot of hope and luck. Obviously this program has not worked for him to get him going around at any level above what you are doing now.

Maybe his feet aren’t doing well either, and in that case, shame on your trainer who is responsible for his farrier care. And that certainly won’t help his back either.

If you have mid 5s to spend on an all around good boy that doesn’t have to be young and fancy and can get you around the jumper ring at lower heights, those horses do exist without a major medical or behavioral problem. Does take some time and some good connections to find them sometimes.

[NaturallyHappy]

@LaurieB

@carrotgirl

Overall, will be continuing my horse search and I’m excited to learn from other trainers as well in my new place. Owning this horse will likely be a heartbreak.

Good for you for persevering after your trainer was wary of the PPE and didn’t want you to do x-rays. (I’m guessing she already knew what you would discover.)

I’m sorry this horse didn’t work out for you, but the heartbreak from walking away now is less now than it would have been in a year or two, if you were left with a horse that had become unrideable.

Best of luck with your horse search (hopefully with a different trainer)!

I’m quoting because I agree with all of this. Best is luck to you!

[carrotgirl]

@Impractical_Horsewoman

Even if a horse was ASYMPTOMATIC and jumping happily, a KS diagnosis is a big-ass deal. (There was a poster in another forum who had this happen, I believe…again, this was with an asymptomatic horse with a much milder diagnosis than your horse, and there were still many experienced horse people telling her not to buy him.)

So… what happens to these horses if no one buys them? Do they get put down?

[OverandOnward]

@carrotgirl

Overall, will be continuing my horse search and I’m excited to learn from other trainers as well in my new place. Owning this horse will likely be a heartbreak.

I am so relieved to hear this wisdom – as I think other posters will be as well. It isn’t just that we’ve gotten to like you, carrotgirl, it’s that some of us see some of ourselves in you and your journey. Hoping we can give the advice that we either didn’t get, or didn’t take, at an earlier life point.

I know that it can be devastating to have to leave behind a horse after we have come to feel enough of a connection that we would love to just care for it for the rest of its life. If we could – but we can’t. If I had those kind of resources, I’d have several in a home pasture just living out their lives, in two-way affection.

[kaya842]

@carrotgirl

So… what happens to these horses if no one buys them? Do they get put down?

I am interpreting your question to mean “what happens to horses that have PPE findings (or known medical issues) so bad that they are unmarketable?”

IME there are a few things that can happen. Euthanasia is one, for some cases. In other cases, the expectations for the horse is lowered (maybe it does walk trot lessons, or ground work lessons, or maybe it’s a professional baby sitter of weanlings) and/ or (typically and not or) the maintenance of the horse is increased (daily Equioxx, more turnout, etc). In other cases, the horse is completely retired and the owner pays $$$ board indefinitely for pony to live out its days.