Trainer thought the vetting went well or trainer played it like the vetting went well in an attempt to minimize the findings and convince you to go through with the sale anyway? I have no personal experience with KS but as a reasonably experienced ammy who has been around the horse world a bit I know enough about KS to know that it’s a serious problem that can easily explain the stopping and the horse may never be pain free. Any professional who has made a career of buying and training horses should know at least that much whether they’ve dealt with it personally or not. It’s very telling that the trainer balked at the idea of you doing X rays.
I’m sorry for this outcome OP, it’s heartbreaking. I hope you can move on and find a more trustworthy trainer and a horse that is suitable to you.
"In one large-scale study, 55% of horses had radiographic evidence of kissing spine, while only 5% had thoracolumbar pain. And in early studies looking at post-mortem examinations, evidence of overriding dorsal spinous processes were reported in as many as 83% to 92% of horses."
Does this mean I should be doing back rads on all the horse PPE’s I do? For example, this horse that I was considering, passed the “feel test” kissing spine exam by two different veterinarians. Back x-rays weren’t recommended, only done because I requested them.
Many people do, yes, especially when spending this kind of $$.
There’s a huge difference, though, in some KS on imaging when the horse is happily doing everything you want to do, versus a horse that’s saying no, consistently and repeatedly. The history on this guy alone should’ve probably had the vets looking for a reason why. Because that whole line your trainer fed you is really not an excuse.
It really depends on the horse, your risk tolerance, and how much cash you have to spend on a PPE. I did back x-rays when I bought my current horse because he was young and had been out of work for a few months when I got him, so I did a more extensive PPE to make up for that. I’ll probably do it again next time, but might consider skipping it on a horse that was consistently doing the job I wanted him for if the price was right.
PPEs are never a guarantee that a horse will or won’t have issues down the line, so you have to take the vet’s assessment and what you know about the horse’s performance and make the best judgment call you can. If you wait for a perfect PPE you may never buy a horse, but there are definitely some flags that are redder than others. If this horse was performing well and you just happened to find KS on the PPE this would be a different conversation, but the behavioral problems plus the vet findings would be a hard pass for a lot of people.
I’m not familiar with a physical exam that can diagnose kissing spine, do you mean they palpated his back? I wouldn’t rely on that to decide whether or not to include back x-rays in a PPE.
There are can be huge potential problems hiding in a horse’s skeletal system that will derail what you wanted to do with this horse.
The cost does mean doing it when it’s a This Is [Probably] The One. Not PPE’ing several and taking the one you like best, unless that is affordable.
KS is indeed being shown to be far more prevalent than previously realized. The xrays to diagnose are not terribly expensive. At this point, I’d never buy a horse without xrays for KS. KS is explaining a lot of horse problems that were sometimes erroneously attributed to training or riding.
Your current example is a good one – horse with sudden issues that were erroneously classified as ‘behavioral’ – did the xrays, now we know the truth. And can make far better decisions. For ourselves, and for the horse as well.
People not doing xrays are increasing their chance of reaching a sudden unforeseen stopping point with their horse. In this day & age we have the ability to know much more. And to be able to treat much more. The PPE can hopefully give a forecast of expenses to keep this horse going, above the usual.
It’s the difference in cost of a few hundred for xrays (total PPE cost $1k or more), vs. the cost of supporting a horse for a significant part of its lifetime without the use of the horse. Or, selling horse at a significant discount IF you can find a suitable home for limited use or as a pasture pet. Not really a market for either, mostly you have to find a home through connections.
MAYBE if all you wanted to do was what you are doing right now – basic lessons that the horse is handling well – never going beyond that – you buy the horse, as-is. But for that activity you don’t need to spend $50k. Trainer was selling you a horse with far more potential, which we now know he didn’t actually have.
Once upon a time, when land and horses were much cheaper and more available, people could buy horses as-is with very little, if any, PPE, without the same level of financial and activity risk. If the horse ran into an unsolvable physical roadblock, it could go out in the owner’s pasture to live. The owner goes on to the next horse, as they have the space for another. But today only a small percentage of horse people have that luxury.
I have heard the dumbest reasons for not doing xrays in a PPE. For me, the worst so far is “You’ll just get a lot of confusing information that you don’t know how to evaluate.” My translation into real-world-speak is “We habitually take naps on train tracks and just live with the consequences. We have lost body parts and lost life opportunities scattered around everywhere.” There are people who do live that way, they are constantly dealing with avoidable life problems (on top of the unavoidable ones)
Radiographs provide one piece of information to help make good decisions. As mentioned above, if this nice horse had not been stopping, the KS radiographs may not have been significant. @carrotgirl, one can run into similar problems w hocks and navicular radiographs. The more well-educated, honest people you can have in your corner, the better.
@carrotgirl, one of the advantages of a thorough pre- purchase is case history. Say you buy a horse that has “something” and decide to sell said horse later on… when the new pre purchase shows the same thing, you can say “oh yes…we found that when I bought him. He’s been doing this job along”
I know sellers often complain that people want “perfect PPEs” but in my own experience, I can think of three instances off the top of my head where PPEs were discouraged and…
Young friend is considering buying OTTB she’s been leasing. Horse is a bit difficult, but she’s a teenager. Seller gives a bit of pushback–price is low, yadda yadda, all OTTBs have a little something, why a PPE. Girl’s family insisted. Horse had significant bone chips and other issues; vet recommended non-jumping career (kid wanted to jump higher, although was just doing low stuff at the time). Family very glad they got the PPE and found the kid a wonderful Appendix who vetted sound with a much more chill temperament.
Relatively inexpensive show horse fails flexion text on PPE. Again, seller angry, says it’s a minor issue. Combined with inconsistent show performances, sale falls through. Horse later has to be retired as pasture companion because not sound.
Difficult OTTB gets sold by hunter rider to eventer. It’s assumed because he’s sassy and difficult he’ll be happier eventing than in the hunter ring. Eventer buys horse cheaply, no PPE. Later heard horse had to be retired because he had KS. (Owner never did diagnostics, just assumed it was the horse’s personality.)
Think of it this way, if something does go wrong with the horse later on, do you want to be haunted with thinking, “wow, I would never have bought him if I’d known”?
I won’t buy my next one without back radiographs and my budget will be like 10-15% of the prices we are talking. I’ve walked based on PPEs and never once regretted it but have deeply regretted pushing through a mediocre vetting or the time I ignored a vets off record concern.
I think it depends on the horse, the job you want it to do, the job it is currently doing and the vet’s recommendation. This horse had some big red flags so you were 100% right in doing an extensive PPE. In fact, you did what the trainer should have done when the horse started to stop – do the diagnostics to figure out why.
Find a new trainer - ride with said trainer for a year or so - lease or half lease a variety of horses - maybe make it a goal to lease 2-3 horses in the next 18 months or ride with a couple of different programs for a few months and compare / contrast.
Then re-visit purchasing - maybe one of those leases is the horse for you or maybe you find the right, supportive, realistic, compassionate, SAFE trainer for you and then they can dutifully help you horse shop.
I know it works for some people, but at the prices you’re willing to pay and the the age you are at (not a teenager and not a single, no f*cks given 22 year old who grew up riding OTTBs) – it doesn’t make sense for someone who is an adult beginner to RUSH into horse ownership.
Your money isn’t going to run away from you if you wait a year - maybe just keep it in a HYSA or CD, not TSLA stock,
One more reason for extensive radiographs with a PPE – it’s a snapshot of the horse’s condition now. Especially for horses who have been in work for a few years, but others as well. The PPE can be useful from this point forward; it’s more than just an aid in a right-now decision.
Later, if the horse is showing something going on with bone, joint, or feet, it can be very helpful to see what the condition looked like at an earlier point in its life. Now the vet can see how rapidly (or not) the condition is progressing.
Most vets recommend back rads for a PPE only if there’s a reason to think they would be helpful OR if the horse is expensive enough to merit back rads even without a reason. A $50k horse belongs in the second category IMO.
One of my horses was also in the second category and was only 4.5 years old when I bought her so not doing very much so far. I did back rads and discovered that one pair of spinous processes were closer than normal but not touching. The vet that did the PPE for me didn’t mention it at all. It was my regular vet who also reviewed the rads that mentioned it to me. It’s been helpful as an extra motivation to ALWAYS make sure she’s working over her back and to make sure she has a very well-fitting saddle.
Everyone and the kitchen sink has a thought about kissing spine. A lot of very good information on this thread. I think the biggest thing to focus on is that the horse is NOT doing the job happily and you’re a novice horse owner. So that should make the decision very easy - I think you need to pass on this horse. Now, if the horse was doing the job you wanted to do consistently (maybe with some known maintenance), that’s a different conversation. But that’s not the conversation here.
As others have said, spend time with a different trainer. Even if it’s just lessons. Lease/half lease a different horse (maybe do this a couple times). Heck, even go audit a clinic or two. Local tack shops around here have classroom sessions about different horse topics (saddle fitting, pasture maintenance, etc). See if there’s anything like that by you maybe! From the sounds of your current barn - they may be a little stuck in the old ways. It would be good to experience a couple different views of the horse world vs what you are currently seeing.
My previous horse, the one in my profile, had cysts in his spine directly under the saddle. I didn’t know until he launched me pretty dramatically and I ended up with 5 broken ribs and a hemothorax and in the hospital for 10 days (I live alone). At that point, I vowed that I would not buy another horse without back xrays (in addition to the standard legs and feet). It meant I had to pass on a couple prospects that had questionable backs. I now have a 6yo draft cross (belgian/suffolk punch, but I’m not competing any more) that has lots of space between his vertebrae, at least as far back as we could get pics with a mobile xray unit.
I wouldn’t trust the ‘feel test’. I want the pictures to prove it.
I would thank the vet for being so forthcoming, and use them again on a pre-purchase if in their area. ESPECIALLY if the owner doesn’t want you to use them, or doesn’t want you to do xrays. I for sure wouldn’t pay that kind of price for a horse with a questionable future.
@carrotgirl Another thing to consider is that many horses with KS that are going successfully under saddle can require a thoughtful and educated management program, as well as extra routine supportive care. Some of those things may include:
extensive turnout, preferably 24/7, with as much room to move as possible
being worked correctly and consistently, both on the ground and under saddle
properly fitted tack, which may need to be checked regularly to accommodate any changes in back development
supportive vet care to break pain cycles; back injections, misotherapy, robaxin, gabapentin, etc.
supportive alternative care; chiropractic, massage, acupuncture, etc
particular attention to farrier work - angles must be correct
It’s a lot to manage for the average horse owner. It can require a lot of extra time and money. If you are boarding, it can be tough to find a place that can accommodate turnout requirements, without sacrificing other things. And if things go slightly off track and your horse becomes symptomatic again, you are dealing with an unhappy, uncomfortable and potentially dangerous animal.
It’s a lot for anyone to take on, but most especially for a newer horse owner.
I do know several people who have successfully managed KS horses but they were situations where they already owned the horse before KS was diagnosed – or, in some cases, before the horses became symptomatic. I’m not sure those people would have gone ahead with the purchase of a horse that was already demonstrating pain from the condition.
I have a KS horse. He was basically cured by surgery. And I will never buy another one or buy a horse without neck and back rads. It’s just too much of a gamble not to know and even having a KS success story, I know I am the exception to the rule and I wouldn’t roll the dice again.
