Conditioning the super-smart, super-stamina'd, super-stubborn horse?

So… I have a trail Paso. She has been doing gentle, short (mostly walking) trail rides for a little over a year. She’s just turned 5, so is getting to the age where I can ask a little more of her. As an green-bean early 4 YO she did fantastic on the trails, handled obstacles, willing to walk anywhere in the group etc. Later in the same year she decided that she wanted to be at the front of the group (normal for Pasos, who walk fast) and began pitching fits when I insisted that we work on being in various spots (also kind of normal – most of the Pasos we’ve had seem to go through a bratty 4 YO quasi-teenager stage that essentially entails ‘I don’t have to and you can’t make me’. Most outgrow it by the time they are 5.). We had a couple of blowups that I put down to mental immaturity and general trail-greenness, then I got busy with other horses and she spent the latter part of the summer in the field with the broodmares. Since November she’s been in and I’ve been working with her 3-5 times a week on ground work (yielding, crossing over, flexibility, side-passes etc.) Mostly I’m giving me tools to get her to listen in case we have another teeny-bopper moment. In the last week or so I’ve begun trying to replicate the ground exercises in the saddle with wildly variant results.

What I’ve discovered is that this mare isn’t just dominant in the herd, she is exceptionally smart – and exceptionally hard-headed. Her ground manners are excellent, she picks things up quickly, she just… b*tches… about having to do things when I ask, particularly when under saddle. Sometimes she executes things well, then on the next session she will resist doing the same activities. For example she will go to the door on the round pen when she’s had enough and act up if I ask her to move away from it. Most of our groundwork sessions are 25-35 minutes in length, so I don’t think I’m asking too much of her brain or body. She breaks a sweat but isn’t soaking wet. She was professionally started and trained, so this isn’t a training-foundation issue. Since we are in winter I don’t think this is hormonal either (not that she was ever a hormonal mare even in the summer). I’m used to fiery and opinionated mares, but this one is setting a new standard for hard-headedness. LOL It’s like she sits in the stall between sessions, thinking up new ways to test me and evade work.

We’ve checked saddle fit and I’m working her in a rope halter, so a bitting problem isn’t even possible. I suspect this is a ‘brain’ issue. It might be that I need to give her more time to mature mentally, but it might also be that this is a phase and if I let her go it will be harder to fix going forward. So I’d like to keep working her and gradually asking more. I’d like to have her doing 4-6 hour trail rides (non competitive) by mid-/late summer, which seems like a modest and realistic goal to me.

Has anyone dealt with a hard-head like this? Can you offer low-stress (for the horse) conditioning activities that I can be doing with her for the next half-year? Since I commute and work I mostly trail ride on the weekends and do the above-mentioned groundwork and playing with the obstacles in the backyard during the week. I don’t want to make every trail-ride with her a test of wills for fear it will turn her off trails, but there is a limit to the amount of groundwork and ‘playing’ in the saddle that I think will be productive and heck – I want a trail horse, not a trick horse LOL Any exercises/activities that folks here can suggest or am I being overly cautious and should I just saddle up and be prepared to duke it out with her?

I should also add that I bred this mare and have a lot of familiarity with the bloodlines. They are clever and agile, slow to mature but have an incredible recovery rate and I do actually think she’d make a great LD horse, so I’m not being unnecessarily stubborn about trying to make this mare into something she can’t be. Although I’m sure if you ask her she’d prefer to be a bossy broodmare. :smiley:

I’m a little confused. When you describe what you’re doing with her now and where she has issues, it looks to me like you’re mostly talking about arena/ground work. What is she actually doing when you’re out on the trails now? (I saw where you described her trail behavior before her extended break but don’t see much on her trail behavior right at this point.)

As an aside, I have to laugh - I have a Paso/Rocky Mtn cross who (very) occasionally has little crow-hop hissy fits when something doesn’t go his way - now I know which side of his breeding to blame that on :slight_smile:

This horse is about five, from the story? And a mare? This horse is not yet fully mature. That won’t happen for a year or two. Even then immaturity can occasionally manifest itself. Then you’ve got the periodic hormonal issues. I have a mare (now 20) who at this age had spells where “the lights were on but nobody was home.” She didn’t buck, rear, or engage in dangerous behavior. She just acted like she had forgotten everything she was ever taught (including how to work on a trail, in a group). Even today when we head home she gets “up” and can be difficult. I deal with it by putting her behind another, quiet horse.

Odds are you’re dealing with immaturity along with the somewhat “forward” Paso Fino temperament. This does not mean you accept the behavior only that you be ready to deal with it (and with the mare’s reaction when you shut down her ability to “act out” on the trail).

Best of luck on your work.

G.

[QUOTE=GotMyPony;7427413]
I’m a little confused. When you describe what you’re doing with her now and where she has issues, it looks to me like you’re mostly talking about arena/ground work. What is she actually doing when you’re out on the trails now? (I saw where you described her trail behavior before her extended break but don’t see much on her trail behavior right at this point.)

As an aside, I have to laugh - I have a Paso/Rocky Mtn cross who (very) occasionally has little crow-hop hissy fits when something doesn’t go his way - now I know which side of his breeding to blame that on :)[/QUOTE]

Well if it’s bucking it’s the RM side – I’ve known some AWESOME RM buckers, but Paso bucks are so wimpy it’s hard to know what is going on LOL. They are better at airs above ground and the art of the artful dodge. :smiley:

Basically on the trails last year we had a couple of knock-down (one almost literally) fights about whether she should be allowed to (a) pick the speed she moved at (preferred speed being WFO, as the dirt bike people say, while I was asking for a walk or small corto to keep her knees from taking too much impact); (b) pick the position within the group, which I am less worried about because I’ve never had a Paso go willingly to the back of the pack, but they will eventually learn to do it. Behaviour was snorting, spinning, jumping and generally throwing a temper tantrum. I never felt truly like I was in danger, but I felt like I was getting into her mouth too much to make her stop, hence the return to ground- and arena-work. She does NOT do this level of misbehaving in the arena, but she is still exhibiting some ‘temper tantrum’ behaviour when she doesn’t get her way. I’m continuing to work on that since I do believe it’s maturity related. I’m confident that when we work this out she’s going to be awesome --that hardheadedness will likely translate into fearlessness – but in the meantime I’m one of those really unpleasant people to be trail riding with and am looking for suggestions on better preparing her so people will actually return my calls when I ask if they want to go for a ride. :winkgrin:

[QUOTE=Guilherme;7427597]
This horse is about five, from the story? And a mare? This horse is not yet fully mature. That won’t happen for a year or two. Even then immaturity can occasionally manifest itself.

G.[/QUOTE]

yeah, that’s what I figured. So you suggest more of the same and patience, correct? That’s what I have planned, just looking to see if there are other things I might not be thinking of since it’s been a while since I worked a horse just for me and just for the trail.

Did I mention she is chestnut? Should I add a year or two to your estimate? :slight_smile:

Tincture of Time cures a lot of equine “behavioral issues.” :slight_smile: Sadly, it’s also THE most frustrating and difficult medicine to administer.

Some horses will always want to be the lead and will argue if they are not. That’s just their temperament.

G.

Well if it’s bucking it’s the RM side – I’ve known some AWESOME RM buckers, but Paso bucks are so wimpy it’s hard to know what is going on LOL.

Well thank God my guy got the Paso buck then!

I agree you need to keep taking her out on the trails. I believe you should be training a horse to do what you want it to do by asking it to do that very thing - unless they’re way too young, of course. Nothing wrong with ground work, it just doesn’t always translate to under saddle quickly and sometimes people get stuck on the ground work and don’t seem to get back in the saddle, IMO.

It sounds like you already know how to ride out her misbehaviors. For me the challenge is - once the hissy fit is over - going back to a nice relaxed ride (“making the right thing easy” as they say). That may be something you have to work on, too.

In our area we have a great cowboy - very calm, very quiet rider - who people can hire to trail ride with them when they have a new/green horse or one who develops behavioral problems. He takes another calm horse out with the rider and helps talk them through the misbehavior or “horse-eating” new obstacles. Or, if it seems particularly bad/potentially dangerous, he’ll switch horses and get on the greenie to work through the issue. Over time it’s less of that and more of just riding along and giving advice. Several people I know have really benefited from hiring him for this kind of thing. I wonder if you might have access to someone like that so your friends won’t have to hide under the hay bales when they see you coming :lol:

GMP she’s not spooky, just… opinionated. She’ll happily lead the group past really scary and silly stuff, as long as it’s HER idea. But I think the cowboy is the ticket. DH likes spicey horses and he gets bored when we walk so he’s not a help on this type of thing. I think I’ll buy my besties a big bottle of wine and ask them to bring their quietest horses out a few times with me. Maybe having a few older mares give her the hairy eyeball will give the silly filly a second thought about acting up on the trail. Thanks, all!

conditioning super smart

Boy I know it’s not nice to laugh at you but I do only because I’ve been there done that and still don’t have a clue what works.Mine was a gelding bought when he was 11.Perfect horse first 2 months then the devil came out and I tried everything everybody told me.Even spent 2 day weekend with trainer working with just me and the horse.All I got from that was that it wasn’t my riding but horse just wanted to fight so don’t fight with him.In other words they didn’t know what to do with him either. Sometimes he circled around so much he ran everyone else off the trail.Anyhow we had a love/hate relationship.I loved him to pieces on the ground and hated him when I rode him.But I did like to ride him just in case the good horse came back.
I had him for 5 yrs.lost him a year ago to colitis.He was so loving up to the last day on the ground.Just something told him he was to noble to work.He was Carmin bred and all say you either love those horses or hate them.I had 3 of them.
That horse was a real learning experience for me.He taught me that I can not fix everything…I’m no expert by any means but always believed that if you spent enough time,loved them,treated them well you could make headway.I learned to accept him as he was and loved him for it.
Now I’m not saying your horse is like that but your story just reminded me of one of my heart horses.Those Pasos are a different breed for sure!Hope you get yours going good soon.And you know the Spanish would already be doing super long rides on her.(some Spanish)

This may be a total shot in the dark, but what are you feeding her?

–Patti

[QUOTE=patti;7441467]
This may be a total shot in the dark, but what are you feeding her?

–Patti[/QUOTE]
Not a long shot, Patti it’s actually a smart question. We already figured out this one gets hotsie-totsie on grain so she gets hay and hay only. The rest of our Pasos (show horses, mostly) get an alfalfa mix and some grain. This one gets half orchard grass and half the alfalfa-mix hay. I’d take her off the mixed hay entirely but even though she’s solidly built I think she’s still growing a bit and we are working her almost daily. Her weight is perfect so I don’t think it’s too much hay, but I guess I could look at taking out the mix as well and see if it makes a difference. I had one Paso gelding here that couldn’t eat anything but the crappiest hay if you wanted him to keep a brain in his head. I tried to make it up to him with carrots. :slight_smile:

KAB, boy, have I met a few like that. :slight_smile: Carmin lines are gorgeous and gorgeous movers. Worth the effort IMO. Sorry to hear you lost your boy.

You may just have to adjust your own wishes with this horse. Many smart horses see no reason to repeat an exercise. “I did it once right let’s move on” and you just may need to understand and agree. Round pen work is dumb inher opinion, and arena exercises are often the same. I suggest that you not do much of it any more and give her what she is wanting, REAL work, trail work. I had a TB who was like this and my dressage instructor convinced me to minimize my arena time and give him the work he craved. I rode an Appy that all the Qtr horse people at the barn despised. They considered him to be dumb and rotten. He was smart and wouldn’t tolerate the monotany of the arena. He wanted out and was a fantastic ride outdoors. He would do one training session a week in the arena, as long as it was short, interesting, nothing repeated and finished quickly, same with the TB.

On the trail, you need to really vary what she does, constantly change her position, and maybe don’t ride with slooooowww boring pleasure riders :wink:

chicamuxen

What Chicamux said.

(I have the Arab version).

Since November she’s been in and I’ve been working with her 3-5 times a week on ground work (yielding, crossing over, flexibility, side-passes etc.)

so she’s been standing in a stall and getting nothing but a very short groundwork session 3-5 times a week?
My experience with babies is they a) need to be turned out as much as possible, and b) need to be ridden every day, preferably twice a day. Otherwise they get bored, full of beans, and obnoxious.
Why are you doing so much groundwork? groundwork is great for pre-saddle work, and for the occasional break from riding, but otherwise it’s really rather repetitious and pointless.
If you want a trail-horse that listens to you on trail, and don’t have time to go on the trail, working on dressage in the arena is useful; then when go on trail, you apply your dressage tools as needed.

[QUOTE=wendy;7459235]
If you want a trail-horse that listens to you on trail, and don’t have time to go on the trail, working on dressage in the arena is useful; then when go on trail, you apply your dressage tools as needed.[/QUOTE]

Agreed, and that’s exactly what I’m attempting to do. It’s been one polar vortex after another here and we don’t have an indoor (do have a covered round pen) the groundwork and some saddle work was the best option. Mostly I started doing it because I felt like I had zero attention or respect from her on the trail and I was having to get hard with the bit to slow her down. She’s a short mouthed horse and sensitive, so this was making things worse, not better. So I went back to groundwork to get her to focus/trust me/listen to my cues. At this point (she says, hoping fervently it’s true) we are almost done with this ridiculous winter weather so I’m hoping to get her back on the trails by the end of the month. Sounds like the COTH consensus is more time and more wet saddlepads!

[QUOTE=BarbaricYawp;7461264]
Sounds like the COTH consensus is more time and more wet saddlepads![/QUOTE]

I think you’re absolutely right on this one.

We have a Morgan/Arab who throws a virtual tantrum when you ask him to do anything twice in a row. He’s a worker and he prefers to drive the bus and we have to find all kinds of sneaky ways to do exercises with him such that he thinks they were HIS idea! He’s taught me a great deal about training horses and made me realize I like my IQ to exceed that of the horse; fortunately not a problem with the others we’ve got. :wink:

Good luck and keep us posted.

–Patti