Confo question on Canter cutie

[findeight]

[QUOTE=TBHunterPrincess;7941915]
Not to hijack the thread, but I love looking at TBs and talking about conformation. As someone with a somewhat long backed gelding, I was not worried when I saw Life is a Rock. Earlier today I saw an ad for another TB, and I am absolutely in love! I am not ready for another horse, but this one is perfect in my eyes (I can even look past the bow since he is a cute mover). Am I blinded by love of is he really that nice? http://www.horseadoption.com/horseprofiles/tiz-happy/[/QUOTE]

This one looks to be the best quality of any of these and I know several who have gotten very good show Hunters from this particular NV locations. Sounds like a handful right now, recently gelded and recently off the track but NV is very honest and usually accurate in their description and, depending on your abilities and situation, might or might not bother you. He sure looks like he would be on the easy keeper side.

However, he is just coming off a bowed tendon, that is a consideration. But search their sites, they are in several states, to learn to pick out the good ones. They seem to get good quality regularly and present them well so you can see too.

That IRS filly…really gosh awful pictures but might be base wide in front and sickle hocked. Or not. Storm Cat close (top side grandpa), Hopefully temperament is closer to Personal Flag (bottom side grandma) but that something you need to evaluate in person.

It’s relatively easy to pick out a good horse if it’s cleaned up and properly posed. The art is looking at what looks like a furry, mud covered POS and seeing underlying conformation that might be a diamond in the rough. But it takes time to learn that as well as determine how trainable it is going to be based on past performance records and bloodline. Practice, it’s free.

[TB_or_not_TB]

Tiz Happy is an extremely quality horse! You’re not being blinded by anything. It sounds like a mild bow but I would want a bit more info. Although again, there’s a purpose factor here. He actually is built to be a dressage superstar. His shoulder comes from a unicorn crossed with a pegasus. :lol: Extremely high point of shoulder, loooong scapula (wait until his withers pop…) and humerus with an open angle between them - beautiful. His neck is set on quite high and is on the shorter side (it could keep growing for a couple years) which adds to the benefit of dressage. that front end means he’ll travel light and his hind end means it will be easy for him to rock back and step under. Note that he is longer from Pt of hip to Pt of buttock, and pt of buttock to stifle, than the third line in that triangle (pt of hip to stifle). That is a dressage butt.

Jumping will be easy for him as well, but we’d like to see his stifle a little lower to even out that equilateral triangle if he were to tackle the Really Big Stuff (GP jumping). Now, this horse has something extremely important that the others are not as strong in - the quality of his loin. He’s very well-coupled, with a strong loin, which means that he actually has access to that hind end. Because of this, with his other assets, this horse could be a contender in any field. I think because of the comparatively lower heights jumping heights in eventing (compared to straight jumpers) combined with his excellent dressage potential, he could really be a lovely upper level candidate.

But here’s one where I would say the reverse of the other that I critiqued. Does the average ammy who’s going Training or lower need this much horse? Probably not, unless his brain is truly superior. If he’s an average TB (not crazy spooky, but not bombproof), his bucks are going to be that much better, and he will have a ton of athleticism to pour into all of his endeavors - which he will create unless someone gives him a productive outlet. Someone seduced by his looks and potential could easily become overfaced. Always buy for YOU and your goals and purpose, never for the “potential” of the horse.

[judybigredpony]

Unless that Volts Suspensory Ultrasounds well and a Sports horse Vet gives him a clean bill of health with NO limitations…Run away…suspensories can be niggling never ending problems.

The mare …yummy and I am not a mare person…her down fall they want almost re sell before re start price …she would have to PPE fully for me to shell out $4k on the track with no clue if she can jump or is marish off track. But if she can jump and isn t moody marish very worthy buy.

Tiz Happy nice looking quality horse …UL Dressage rock star…well until he moves will reserve judgement…not uphill enough…looks like nice Hunter to me…
Again a U/S of bow is required before proceeding. Old cold n set sound maybe but still need to see extent of original injury …

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=TB or not TB?;7941234]
What would be your goal for the horse? That makes a big difference in the critique because the “ideal” changes based on use. Neither horse has any glaring issues and would be suitable for the low-mid levels of any sport. I wouldn’t place bets on either becoming an upper level mount, but conformation doesn’t take into account the brain or heart. All are factors, and at the end of the day most people would to well to choose brain over conformation unless there is a huge problem.

That said… The first horse has a modern “sprinter” racehorse build - butt high, a little downhill, and high stifle. This is not my favorite type for eventing, but lets look at him a bit closer because he has some interesting qualities to evaluate. His scapula is on the shorter side, which works against him in stride length, but his humerus is quite long as a saving grace to add some back in. The angle between them is just under 90 degrees, and we would like that to be a bit more open to really have a nice front end. The point of shoulder is quite low as well, so he will likely move pretty average to a tad short in front (but will also probably have snappy, hunter knees). You can see this on his video - his back end is stunted by the front and he can’t fully track up. That will be a constant tug of war for the rider in dressage.

He has a sizeable hind end with a lot of width (pt of hip to pt of buttock) which connotes power, but his stifle is a few inches too high to really give him the scope for higher fences. You see it is not an equilateral triangle between the three rear points. He is also quite straight behind with super long cannon bones. Neither bode well for soundness, though the straightness will mean he can step under better than he otherwise would have. A bonus in dressage if you can manage the front end shortness. The saving grace is the angle at which his neck comes out, because he naturally has some elevation to the front end from that, so shouldn’t appear too downhill in movement or ride. He will likely try to fool you under saddle though by raising his neck as an evasion to rocking back on his hocks since that would be much harder for him. See the development on the underside of the neck he has already. Oh, and yes, he’s long in the loin, but you would want to palpate for the LS joint to check its placement for impact. His loin looks a little weak but the more I study it, I think it’s a bit of an illusion due to his downhill stature.

So what does that mean practically? This is where conformation is deceiving. If he had a good mind and vetted, I would look at him as a horse to be a steady Novice-Training level campaigner. Since most eventers fall to that category or lower, he would be a great mount for many people. His scores in dressage would improve dramatically if the rider takes into account his build and uses that to capitalize on his strengths. If the rider tries to take shortcuts in the dressage and ride from the hand, his way of going will worsen and so will his soundness.

I was going to talk about the mare but this post got WAY too long. Sorry, I get passionate about conformation. :o[/QUOTE]

Great post! Your knowledge of conformation as it relates to eventing use on these guys is extensive and very useful. I DO think you make a very good point about buyers being honest with themselves about their real goals; the VAST majority of horses will never be asked to do much more than plopping around at Novice or Training–and the level of soundness to do that is orders of magnitude lower than that required for the efforts at Prelim. and above. I believe the majority of CANTER horses who are not out-and-out cripples would be suitable to go at the levels where most ammies will realistically take them.

[DaniW]

Reeaaallly pretty horse. I would just X-ray those feet for sure. And I’d make sure he’s not actually back at the knee.

[judybigredpony]

[QUOTE=TB or not TB?;7941234]
What would be your goal for the horse? That makes a big difference in the critique because the “ideal” changes based on use. Neither horse has any glaring issues and would be suitable for the low-mid levels of any sport. I wouldn’t place bets on either becoming an upper level mount, but conformation doesn’t take into account the brain or heart. All are factors, and at the end of the day most people would to well to choose brain over conformation unless there is a huge problem.

That said… The first horse has a modern “sprinter” racehorse build - butt high, a little downhill, and high stifle. This is not my favorite type for eventing, but lets look at him a bit closer because he has some interesting qualities to evaluate. His scapula is on the shorter side, which works against him in stride length, but his humerus is quite long as a saving grace to add some back in. The angle between them is just under 90 degrees, and we would like that to be a bit more open to really have a nice front end. The point of shoulder is quite low as well, so he will likely move pretty average to a tad short in front (but will also probably have snappy, hunter knees). You can see this on his video - his back end is stunted by the front and he can’t fully track up. That will be a constant tug of war for the rider in dressage.

He has a sizeable hind end with a lot of width (pt of hip to pt of buttock) which connotes power, but his stifle is a few inches too high to really give him the scope for higher fences. You see it is not an equilateral triangle between the three rear points. He is also quite straight behind with super long cannon bones. Neither bode well for soundness, though the straightness will mean he can step under better than he otherwise would have. A bonus in dressage if you can manage the front end shortness. The saving grace is the angle at which his neck comes out, because he naturally has some elevation to the front end from that, so shouldn’t appear too downhill in movement or ride. He will likely try to fool you under saddle though by raising his neck as an evasion to rocking back on his hocks since that would be much harder for him. See the development on the underside of the neck he has already. Oh, and yes, he’s long in the loin, but you would want to palpate for the LS joint to check its placement for impact. His loin looks a little weak but the more I study it, I think it’s a bit of an illusion due to his downhill stature.

So what does that mean practically? This is where conformation is deceiving. If he had a good mind and vetted, I would look at him as a horse to be a steady Novice-Training level campaigner. Since most eventers fall to that category or lower, he would be a great mount for many people. His scores in dressage would improve dramatically if the rider takes into account his build and uses that to capitalize on his strengths. If the rider tries to take shortcuts in the dressage and ride from the hand, his way of going will worsen and so will his soundness.

I was going to talk about the mare but this post got WAY too long. Sorry, I get passionate about conformation. :o[/QUOTE]

All of this works in theory based on a single dimensional photo…now throw it all,out the window …because you have to see the horse MOVE…and see how he stands on his own not positioned…see how his feet strike the pavement , how he distributes his weight over the ground when left on his own. The best looking design doesn t always function and some of the most awkward architecture at first glance can knock your socks when put into motion!!

[TB_or_not_TB]

[QUOTE=judybigredpony;7948696]
All of this works in theory based on a single dimensional photo…now throw it all,out the window …because you have to see the horse MOVE…and see how he stands on his own not positioned…see how his feet strike the pavement , how he distributes his weight over the ground when left on his own. The best looking design doesn t always function and some of the most awkward architecture at first glance can knock your socks when put into motion!![/QUOTE]

Oh there is a TON you can’t tell from a photo! Even from conformation. Elbow placement has a big impact and so does LS joint, and you can’t see these except in person. The current movement will definitely tell you more, but I would further this by saying you can’t fully judge horse movement until it’s sound and out of pain, uninhibited by rider, and fully grown. You can get impressions, of course, but really potential is only ever speculation.

This horse is barely 5 so has probably 2-3 years of development in spine, neck, and withers. He looks totally huntery as you say in the video, but it looks to me like it’s pain and freshness and some rider interference. I didn’t mention his feet in the critique, but if you look how scarily-short he is, there is no way that horse cannot be thin-soled and footsore. That’s a sure way to ruin his movement. He has glimpses wonderful hock articulation, so I would love to see him actually sound.

Conformation shows the ideal that the horse could reach with perfect management, physical condition, and training. Every tick against these (again, pain, bad training, sub-par riding, wrong equipment, unwilling disposition, etc) takes the horse a notch down from that ideal. That’s the gamble for any prospect - and the fun! :yes:

ETA - Conformation is also a great “should” tool for evaluation. So if a horse “should” move like xyz, and it’s not, to me that’s a great flag for investigation on a green prospect. Are there injuries or soundness questions unknown? Has poor training contributed? The contrast between what I see structurally and what I see in front of me is a great way to guide the PPE.

[judybigredpony]

TB or not TB…in a single day I can go look at over 125 TB on the track and the One rule I live by is they make Liars out of Us every time .
The worst jug head awkward hung on a funny placed neck body roached looking back big gallump not even a nice color…Who I politely said sure jog him…not only was he a jaw dropping mover but easly trotted over 4ft Oxers…A horse who if zi posted a photo on here would be a Snort on keyboard moment!
But given a chance to move the way his body allowed while not ever a pretty boy under tack moving he stops traffic and is now in an impressive home getting chance to excell.
Some of the prettiest horses with best conformation just done live up to expectations. If you like it go look…get a video jogging down a hard surface or pay someone to go look. If nothing else get a picture of the horse trotting.
I like to see them walk and stop n stand with out handler fidgeting them.
Everyone has their own way of doing things.

[LookmaNohands]

Tiz Happy does not look so happy in his body. Could be just sore feet in front–ground looks hard but he is tight and almost uneven behind. His tail is very tight. Could just need a little Chiro and some time to learn how to move more correctly through his topline. He could develop into a fancy mover! Definitely a fancy looking boy!

Judybigredpony: Having In Reality top and bottom is a good thing–right?

[Sticky_Situation]

[QUOTE=TB or not TB?;7942980]
But here’s one where I would say the reverse of the other that I critiqued. Does the average ammy who’s going Training or lower need this much horse? Probably not, unless his brain is truly superior. If he’s an average TB (not crazy spooky, but not bombproof), his bucks are going to be that much better, and he will have a ton of athleticism to pour into all of his endeavors - which he will create unless someone gives him a productive outlet. Someone seduced by his looks and potential could easily become overfaced. Always buy for YOU and your goals and purpose, never for the “potential” of the horse.[/QUOTE]

I couldn’t agree with this more. While it’s important to have an understanding of conformation and how form relates to function and soundness, the fact is that the majority of TB’s that don’t have major soundness issues have more than enough athletic ability to do what 98% of amateurs do. To me, having a sensible mind is more important than having the conformation and athletic ability to gallop around Rolex.

[Cossack]

[QUOTE=HorseKrazy;7941201]
This one is my fav so far

http://www.canterusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11125:sharp-knuckles&catid=41:n-cal-trainer-listings&Itemid=61

I know…red head mare and on the small side so not great from a resale perspective, but nicely put together![/QUOTE]

I actually REALLY like this filly. Yes, she’s tucked up & “race fit” - but she seems really nicely put together. Like those bloodlines (Silver Deputy), too. I bet she has resale potential, actually. Looking at her race records - there are no long breaks or anything that really raises any flags (though I still believe in a PPE)… just genuinely seems slow. If I was in the market - I would totally consider this little red head! I bet she’ll be super!

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Cossack;7950596]
I actually REALLY like this filly. Yes, she’s tucked up & “race fit” - but she seems really nicely put together. Like those bloodlines (Silver Deputy), too. I bet she has resale potential, actually. Looking at her race records - there are no long breaks or anything that really raises any flags (though I still believe in a PPE)… just genuinely seems slow. If I was in the market - I would totally consider this little red head! I bet she’ll be super![/QUOTE]

I really liked her too - but was worried about whatever that is on her knees. She has a very intelligent eye.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

@LookmaNohands;7949887

Tiz Happy does not look so happy in his body. Could be just sore feet in front–ground looks hard but he is tight and almost uneven behind. His tail is very tight. Could just need a little Chiro and some time to learn how to move more correctly through his topline. He could develop into a fancy mover! Definitely a fancy looking boy!

This was my first impression of Tiz Happy as well. I thought I saw unevenness behind in his video under saddle, and it looks like he could be “heavy” as well. I’m guessing he would be the type that you hear pounding the ground when he is working rather than one that seems to float across it. Love his head and his eye, love his socks, and he definitely has a presence, but the his movement doesn’t do it for me.

[Cossack]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7950601]
I really liked her too - but was worried about whatever that is on her knees. She has a very intelligent eye.[/QUOTE]

I hear ya! Hard to tell… but totally worth a call &/or look!

Could it even just be bits of straw/bedding if she was sleeping in her stall before the pics?? She’s pretty clean otherwise, though - but I’ve seen the grooms rapidly brush them up when they take them out to show buyers at the track. Maybe they missed a spot - lol!

[cb06]

"Updated to add Full Moon Princess. "

I love this filly’s conformation. She is a little long over her loin (LS junction set just a smidge behind her point-of-hip), and she is a little straight behind (stifle/hock/pastern angles are open)…but some people don’t mind that. She’s got classic ‘7’ angles behind and also an open shoulder angle and forward placed front legs. Do you have a video of her moving? I’d bet she can move. Plus she has nice bone, solid looking, nice pastern angles, tendon attachments. Beautiful high set neck…Really like her.

Not crazy about this mare.

http://www.canterusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11125:sharp-knuckles&catid=41:n-cal-trainer-listings&Itemid=61

From the withers back, very weak, long loin connection. Post-legged behind and too much slope in her pasterns, especially those rears. Elbows set too far under her shoulder, finer boned…would be a ‘no’ for me.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=cb06;7951976]

Not crazy about this mare.

http://www.canterusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11125:sharp-knuckles&catid=41:n-cal-trainer-listings&Itemid=61

From the withers back, very weak, long loin connection. Post-legged behind and too much slope in her pasterns, especially those rears. Elbows set too far under her shoulder, finer boned…would be a ‘no’ for me.[/QUOTE]

I would respectfully disagree. She is racing fit and tucked up, but she is not very weak in the loin at all. I could see where she may look it, but she has a decent loin connection. A good way to see if a horse is weak in the loin is to look for the space between the point of hip and the last rib. This mare has very little space floating in that area. If anything, her back is a little longer than I normally like.

Additionally, she has a low point of hip which could be favorable for collected work - she has an ideal slant in her croup and it matches the slope of her femur. Her straight-leggedness behind does not offput me because she has a low point of hip and a generous slope to her femur, both of which lend to good, scopey and powerful jumpers.

Regarding her pasterns, her hoof angles are truly race-shod… the pasterns don’t worry me.

Obviously, this mare may tell a different story in person - but I still think she is a nice mare.

ETA: Full Moon Princess has more glaring conformation faults than Sharp Knuckles does, IMHO - including the weakness of her loin and flat croup.

[cb06]

Then we will agree to disagree Beowulf.

An interesting read:
http://jwequine.com/jwequine/pdf/conformation_for_an_eventer.pdf

Another interesting observation. The bay mares stifle is very clearly below her elbow, which to some indicates a more ‘uphill’ conformation.
The chestnut mares’ stifle is very clearly above her elbow.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=cb06;7952057]
Then we will agree to disagree Beowulf.

An interesting read:
http://jwequine.com/jwequine/pdf/conformation_for_an_eventer.pdf[/QUOTE]

The problem with relying on an article to develop your eye is that you will not become familiar with how conformation plays a part in the horse’s way of going. If you posted any horse on this forum built like Dan it would be torn asunder by critiques. He is a lovely horse, but a freak of nature to still be sound with such upright conformation.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Dan didn’t stay sound because of his conformation. He was so straight behind and it caught up with him.

Of the two mares. They are both extremely different in type. Things to like and dislike about both of them. But to my eye, the chestnut is more of an athletic type and built to jump. But she is smaller than I would want. I like the big brown mare but do not love her hind end but she is not really standing well in any of the photos so I could like it more in person. J would certainly go look at both of them.

[LarkspurCO]

[QUOTE=Groom&Taxi;7950618]
This was my first impression of Tiz Happy as well. I thought I saw unevenness behind in his video under saddle, and it looks like he could be “heavy” as well. I’m guessing he would be the type that you hear pounding the ground when he is working rather than one that seems to float across it. Love his head and his eye, love his socks, and he definitely has a presence, but the his movement doesn’t do it for me.[/QUOTE]

I also loved him until I saw the video. Being foot or body sore could explain it, but it was disappointing.

The chestnut mare is beautiful, but then her feet… Ugh… I like good feet and those don’t good or strong. But maybe she is a 10 mover and is worth a lifetime of expensive princess shoeing. :lol:

Life is a Rock, the first gelding, is very pretty, moves nicely and has nice feet, though the suspensory is concerning.