To me, this horse looks like an all-rounder type, but not like a great athlete. Likely wont have the movement to shine at the lower levels and would have to overcome physical challenges to reach the higher levels. Still, mind and trainability mean a lot and don’t show up on a picture.
Also need to see him move. I have seen horses that look like a potato standing still but transform into a ballerina in motion!
Some people on this board may have had experience with horses that did not fit the ideal of what a dressage/performance horse should look like. It’s one photo. Years ago I looked at horse that was conformed like this one. Very compact, shorter neck. But, but, he floated when he moved. I’ve also bought and trained a few horses that others would overlook. They didn’t become stunning upper level horses, but they were nice. The last one sold for five times what I paid for her. She is a gorgeous mover. Most people would have overlooked her because of her short, thick neck.
Again, watch the horse move and pay attention to temperament. I’ve also owned that pretty, beautifully conformed horse as well. Soundness or temperament issues kept them from reaching the potential I expected. You really can’t tell from one photo.
right hind is about to come off the ground and that might influence how angles/heel etc looks. Right fore might be slightly turned out, also affecting how the angles look.
A pretty or floaty mover doesn’t really have a solid relationship to the horse’s ability to bend through the ribcage but most importantly to close the joints in the hind end and sit down. This example, with a large hindquarters and short back, just seems to lack the geometry.
If someone weren’t particular about the outcome then that is just fine. However If someone wants to do PSG successfully the trainability AND the physical capacity have to be there. There’s a veritable Grand Canyon between what is required for say, second level, and the weight carrying capacity required for PSG.
i’d have guessed that a longer ilium would assist a horse getting his/her rear tucked and also maybe a shorter back would help a horse lift…to make that traveling letter C
It’s the relationship between the ilium and the femur that is the issue - a long ilium with a short femur predisposes the horse to have a more upright way of going and less range of motion in the lower supporting structures.
What i see is a fairly equal length now that i look closely, but a very open angle.
Really? I find this statement questionable. I don’t think a good tempered and trainable typical, say, halter-bred QH can pull off a correct canter pirouette or tempis or collected/extended any gait. Nor cow-bred QHs (although I know a freakishly inbred Hancock QH who has the build and spark to maybe pull this off if he can settle his brain). IMO, a horse has to be trainable, good temperament and have a BUILD to go to PSG correctly.
That said, I think any horse can do second level. Not higher than that correctly. Correctly.
I personally know someone who has trained 2 rescued QH to GP. Is she breaking 60? Not often. But they have all the movements but 5 gaits so the test is a lot of 4s and 5s. She has another one now that she bought for $400 and is already heading towards second.
I personally rode one for three years that was bought off a trail string, though he had good conformation. At the end of it he had all of a 4th level and could do the PSG if you were willing take a little hit on the pirouettes. He had better gaits than any of hers and scored into the high 60s through 3rd before I sold him. His new owner is nearby and I rode him recently - he still has a perfectly serviceable passage and the 2s are rusty but he got the idea after a refresher.
What holds back most horses is their temperament for learning new things first, then their physical limitations second. I wouldn’t say any of these 3 found the work astonishingly easy but they did like the work which made them easy to train.
No, your average horse is not going to have the outright athletic ability to be competitive at that level. But they can be taught to do the work.
A long time ago, I attended a seminar with an Olympic vet. He said any decently conformed horse with a good brain could do third level, maybe fourth. To my surprise, he also said a horse with slight sickle hocks and cow hocks had an advantage for “sitting.”
I also know a downhill QH who is schooling GP. I own a ranch bred QH who passes for a WB or GRP cross. That’s coming from judges. If you go back t the 80’s some of the Warmbloods looked like plow horses.
Well, ranch-bred QHs are bred to do a job. I have worked cows with my WB and am amazed at the athleticism of real cow horses. The hancock horse I mentioned would likely excel at dressage if he wasn’t so reactive. His owner, a professional trainer, tells me all the time I can ride him whenever I want. But just having watched the horse try to take him through the arena fence when he asked for a canter after not working for a bit, I tell him I’ll wait a bit for a more solid foundation before getting on him
I can buy that horses with slight sickle hocks can have an advantage for sitting, but I wonder how many of them stay sound working at that level. Many WBs don’t stay sound at FEI.
I knew a QH that competed at GP. I am not visualizing how a downhill QH is correctly schooling GP.
Yes, 80s WBs were literally out of working stock. 1990s Olympic horses couldn’t qualify today.
I still believe the average horse can pull off second level correctly. Above that, most average horses can’t extend and collect at all gaits, cant provide “jump” into the canter and flying changes, can’t pull off great lateral work correct at that level, etc.
My Lusitano Bravo has slightly straight hocks - and it definitely affects his ability to really “sit”. I can see how a slightly sickle hocked horse, with those cannon bones already under the horse, could have an advantage.
I’ll agree things have changed. When I was in high school, the local trainer who became an “I” judge rode a Saddlebred and Appendix QH. Both were trained to GP. Warmbloods were just being imported and were not-so-nice culls from European breeders.
WB breeding has improved drastically over the last 40 years and they obviously have an advantage in dressage and jumping, also now eventing. In my opinion, people are unwilling to look at off-breeds even though they are capable. Look at the Saddlebred mare posted on the off-breeds thread. She is built for sport.
It’s obvious a halter bred, big-ass, downhill QH will have a problem in dressage. That’s not what we are seeing in the horse posted by the OP. Like I said, I’m sure some posters here have worked with horses that don’t meet the ideal and have had success. I mentioned in another thread I did my first piaffe on a tiny Arab/Saddlebred cross. She was trained to GP. I did my first tempi changes on a TB and perfected shoulder-ins on a spicy little remount.
Hint - I’m the OP of the off breed thread, too. I have loved WBs and I am not a hater, but I am not made of money. WBs in my budget are either freakishly young or a twinkle in the mare’s eye, lame, old, or insane. Lol. I just love a chunk, but agree, this horse may be too chunky.
This horse is a TB with Awesome Again (and Deputy Minister), and Cee’s Tizzy, Tiznow’s sire, in the bloodline, and I do think the one pic may be at an odd angle/moment. The rescue is knowledgeable and honest, so he’ll be screened. They know my goals, so it’ll be fun. I just love looking at confo, and learning to develop my eye. Thanks and hopefully I get a great partner, with the brain to try and the body to keep up. And I prove worthy of said horse;)
Sure!
My friend sent her Arabian stallion by her beloved Arabian stallion to Hinda Gurney and they did great through third in CA competition! A good horse is a good horse for dressage. Not all horses can do dressage. Lots of individuals can do dressage.
My WB says “meh” when cows leave his orbit when working them. The QHs say “oh no, OH NO are you leaving my orbit”. They are bred for the work. My WB isn’t. That’s fine, I do this with my WB to give him new experiences.
Without roads and tracks, warmbloods are favored in eventing.
Sure, any outlier in a breed can compete in anything. Like I mentioned, my WB is a failure with cows and couldn’t ever compete with them despite exposure. Most QHs would kick his ass. That said, I’ve done clinics with QHs that worked ACTUAL cows but couldn’t handle flag work, which my WB could do. Such satisfying times when he excelled over ranch-bred and working QHs on a flag. We take any edge we can get! !!!
Go see him and then decide. I do like his breeding. Maybe the photo is funky, maybe not. I have owned five TBs, all trained for dressage. Two were shorter in the back, three longer. Yes, the short-backed horses were not as supple, but stayed sound into old age. One is in his late 20’s and still packing beginners.
Well, any cow can jump 1m and I have personally nearly driven off the road watching an actual cow do a decent canter pirouette in her field, so … LOL.
But seriously, the barrel bred horses - some of them are lovely - not downhill, lovely gaits, loads of sit.
Any cow can jump 3’3"? I SOOOOOOO disagree with this! Any cow will barrel through a fence. They don’t jump 3’3". Many horses can’t jump that.
The post I was replying to said that even downhill QHs can do PSG. I disagree that they can do correct PSG movements.
Note I said I know a Hancock inbred QH who would likely excel at dressage due to his build.
Actually I never said downhill QHs specifically. I said “most horses” encounter train ability problems before they encounter physical limitations and that most horses can be trained to do the PSG movements IF they have the trainability and work ethic, which a heck of a lot of horses do not have.
Not interested in debating absolutes, but as an aside, I personally witnessed a Jersey cow jump a 4’ pasture fence from a standstill! I was in shock and may have told the horse I was on that he had no excuse:). Now, not sure the cow could jump a course or said height with a human, but I can verify at least that cow had skills🤣
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