Conformation questions/pet peeves

[MJT_prevet7]

What do you look for conformationally, behaviorally, athletically etc when deciding to breed?

I’ve noticed that certain breeds unfortunately have tendencies in some undesirable areas-genetics issues, unattainable, conformational abnormalities.
My university is very involved in quarter horse breeding, I’ve noticed that many QHs are built down hill and have other abnormalities; obviously no breed and no individual is perfect. But I want to know why people designed this breed to be down-hill, and sometimes cow hocked & sickle hocked? (also race-bred Tbs fit into this category sometimes as well)
(Quarter horse people don’t hate me these are just some observations I’ve made recently).

[HungarianHippo]

I don’t believe anyone is breeding for sickle hocks or other conformation defects. But they tend to run in certain breeds. Just as straight shoulders or pasterns, or any number of other undesirable breed traits–which may get overlooked or tolerated because x, y, z qualities of the sire/mare make them marketable.

Some relevant discussion on Downhill:
https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/f…uilt-down-hill

From your other post, it seems like you may be applying an eventing/dressage frame of mind to the western-type QH program at your university. Why not attend a program that’s more aligned to your chosen discipline? Or, just use this time to learn the best of what your university’s program has to offer, and forgive its shortcomings.

[Scribbler]

Downhill apparently correlated to speed in racehorses. Virtually 100 % of TB today come out of racing breeding programs.

You might find Deb Bennett’s book on functional conformation interesting.

Different conformation supports different specialized activities. Even within the QH world there are very different kinds of horses for roping cutting Western Pleasure hunters halter racing etc.

A good breeding program is going to look at the performance record of the potential parents as well as the conformation. If you select for just a narrow slice of performance you get racing TB that are faster and faster but might have structural weaknesses. If you select just for looks you end up with unrideable halter QH and Arabs.

The strength of the European warmblood programs is that the consider both conformation and performance.

As far as sickle hocked what you are probably describing is just a proportionately long back leg so the the horse can’t stand straight up behind. What are the consequences of having a long hind leg?

Anyhow your university is probably breeding a specific niche of QH. Your questions will be partly answered if you go out and find photos and video of top competitors in that niche. What is their job? How does their conformation affect the ability to do that job? What tradeoffs are there? On the other hand what might be too much of a good thing?

You need to understand the discipline you are breeding for before you know what tradeoffs and pitfalls to make and avoid.

[JB]

@MJT_prevet7

I’ve noticed that many QHs are built down hill and have other abnormalities; obviously no breed and no individual is perfect. But I want to know why people designed this breed to be down-hill, and sometimes cow hocked & sickle hocked? (also race-bred Tbs fit into this category sometimes as well)
(Quarter horse people don’t hate me these are just some observations I’ve made recently).

Having observed this a lot too, my theory is that they (in general) wanted to breed horses who were more physically able, and sooner able to do the work being required, and they didn’t have to spend more time, and be more proficient at, training for that.

Butt high (which is different from being functionally downhill) makes it physically easier to lower the front end for, say, Cutting.

Sickle hocks make it physically easier to get the hind legs under the body to get the whole body down and low.

If by cow-hocked you mean the true definition - hocks closer to the midline than the fetlocks when standing squarely - that makes it easier to get the hind legs laterally away from the body when they get down low.

Those things may be true, and while the horse is young and his body more forgiving, it seems fine. But all those things are detrimental to long-term soundness. All those things make the work they are doing the majority of the time, which is conditioning, harder on the body. Butt-high impacts saddle fit and how it wants to slide forward, as well as increasing weight on the front end. Sickle hocks and cow hocks are structurally weaker, especially when having that sort of work, with lots of rollbacks and low holding positions done.

The QH world isn’t the only one where faults are perpetuated and even increased as a way to make early training go faster, with less ability of the trainer.

[JB]

@HungarianHippo

I don’t believe anyone is breeding for sickle hocks or other conformation defects.

Sadly, the QH performance world is - not in totality, but they see these things as desirable, just like the TWH world in general likes to see sickle hocks

From your other post, it seems like you may be applying an eventing/dressage frame of mind to the western-type QH program at your university. Why not attend a program that’s more aligned to your chosen discipline? Or, just use this time to learn the best of what your university’s program has to offer, and forgive its shortcomings.

IMHO, there is no reason the QH, in any discpline, cannot adhere to the same conformational integrity standards that the WBs adhere to. Sport is sport. Different disciplines will have different looks because the slope of the shoulder has impacts on how high knees can lift and how far forward they can go, so Dressage horses and Jumpers will have a steeper shoulder than, say, the HUS or WP horse where they want low and flat movement. Hocks that line up under the point of the butt with a vertical cannon bone will always be the standard for the most structurally sound, with camped out being a lesser fault than sickle hocks in terms of long-term soundness.

There are many top cutting and reining QH stallions who have excellent build, with nice shoulders and properly conformed hind legs and not butt-high

@Scribbler

Different conformation supports different specialized activities. Even within the QH world there are very different kinds of horses for roping cutting Western Pleasure hunters halter racing etc.

Yes there are different typical conformations that lend themselves better to certain performances. There’s a range of correct confo when it comes to maximizing long-term soundness. Any and all deviations outside of that range decrease that, and is a flaw. Breeding FOR those flaws, as many disciplines to, is harming the horse.

A good breeding program is going to look at the performance record of the potential parents as well as the conformation. If you select for just a narrow slice of performance you get racing TB that are faster and faster but might have structural weaknesses. If you select just for looks you end up with unrideable halter QH and Arabs.

IMHO if they select for proper conformation looks, not man-made aesthetics looks, you’d get consistently rideable horses.

As far as sickle hocked what you are probably describing is just a proportionately long back leg so the the horse can’t stand straight up behind. What are the consequences of having a long hind leg?

Sickle hocks are about a too-long fibula (gaskin) with a too-closed angle to the cannon bone. The cannon bone can never be made vertical, unless perhaps the leg is parked way out behind the horse, and maybe not even then. In contrast, the camped out horse has a too-long fibula as well, but a more open angle to the cannon, and the cannon will be vertical with the point of the hock behind the point of the butt.

The sickle-hock leg can be relatively short, though the camped out leg is relatively long.

You need to understand the discipline you are breeding for before you know what tradeoffs and pitfalls to make and avoid.

Yes and no. The generic standard range of conformation aspects exist because that’s what is consistently present in horses who are able to perform athletic work for many year with the fewest soundness issues. Within that range, there are definitely variances which predispose a horse to being better at one thing or another. A more upright shoulder, with an open-angle humerus that is also longer, makes for a Jumper who can get his knees up under his chin, but also leads to more knee action on the flat, so not necessarily the ideal for a Hunter. Both are still correct and functional, but the movement produced is different.

The sickle hock may allow a reiner to get his butt and hind legs under him more easily in the short-term, but all else equal, those legs will become (more) unsound, and sooner than the horse with proper conformation.

[Scribbler]

Yes, very good points adding more specificity to what I was trying to say. Some traits may be useful in moderation but when exaggerated, lead to issues with long term soundness

Racing TB mostly start and finish their careers as babies, before the age you would even be putting a WB into.regular training. And one of the posters above reminds us the same is true of QH that go into cutting and reining futurities at the age of two.

So the disciplines are selecting for what will contribute to success in a half grown adolescent horse, not necessarily to long term soundness or even performance as an adult.

Understanding the breeding goals will help understand the horses that result. You can disagree with the goals and the result of course but need to know that first.

[JB]

@Scribbler

So the disciplines are selecting for what will contribute to success in a half grown adolescent horse, not necessarily to long term soundness or even performance as an adult.

Yes, exactly, you nicely summarized what I was trying to say. And that is never a benefit other than to someone’s bottom line

This is why I’m a much bigger fan of breeds and registries which implement breeding approval processes to ensure quality breeding stock and the bettering of the breed/type over time, when that is based on what leads to long-term soundness. Everyone strays at some point, getting too focused on made-up aesthetics over actual function, but for registries without a solid history of breeding for soundness, not simply early performance, that too often ends up becoming their long-term vision because they are only focused on the here and now

[MysticOakRanch]

@Scribbler

The strength of the European warmblood programs is that the consider both conformation and performance.

I agree to a point, but… The WB conformation is not ideal for many other disciplines. And even in that inspection world, there are traits that are desirable because of the performance standards of jumping and dressage, that are not desirable for (a) many other disciplines, and (b) long term soundness. Not really all pointed at your post but…

As many have pointed out, uphill does not create speed, so that would be one trait that is not desirable for the QH or TB who are both speed horses. That is just one example.

And in regards to long term soundness - big movement, and overly big horses do not lead to long term soundness. And big movement is NOT desirable for many pleasure disciplines, it is too hard to ride.

There are many other examples of both (a) and (b) as well in the WB inspection world. OTOH, it is a better model then many other registries use, because there is some level of quality control (beyond the show world).

You can’t use the standards of the WB (sport horse) conformation and say it is ideal for ALL breeds and disciplines. OP, you probably need to develop some understanding of other breeds and disciplines to do the study you are discussing. It would actually be very interesting to get some perspective on the whys of different conformation characteristics. And to see the situations where those characteristics have been taken too far - and situations where we’ve lost sight of less obvious characteristics (such as temperament).

Another interesting conformation characteristic that you might look at and say WHY? Andalusian horses tend to have very narrow, upright feet - very SMALL feet. I have always wondered why that was something that was bred into the breed. Then I read an indepth history of the breed, and they pointed out that this is a breed that originated in a place with dry, hard, often rocky ground. So the horse’s feet grew tall and deep to provide protection for the foot and frog. Bigger feet would just chip and fall apart, and wouldn’t handle the rocky ground well.

Or, when you look at many draft breeds, you might ask - why such a sloping croup, why such a short, thick neck? But they are bred for power to pull (versus push), and those characteristics allow them to pull heavy loads.

Gaited horses are built for SMOOTH movement, so a person could ride all day long in comfort - different then big WB movement. QHs are also bred for short bursts of speed, then comfortable all day movement. Arabians are bred for long distance speed and hardiness in harsh climate. And so on - different breeds, different purpose, different conformation.

You might even ask, why do some breeds deviate so far from the wild horse, which is nature’s answer to sturdy, thrifty, hardy?

Having said that, the other thing I would point out is that halter breeding (in any breed, and for that matter, in any species - look at what we’ve done to DOGS) seems to deviate a long ways from functionality. Halter breeders and conformation breeders (horse, dog, cat, whatever species) do tend to take characteristics too far, and create non-functional animals.

[JB]

@MysticOakRanch

You can’t use the standards of the WB (sport horse) conformation and say it is ideal for ALL breeds and disciplines. OP, you probably need to develop some understanding of other breeds and disciplines to do the study you are discussing. It would actually be very interesting to get some perspective on the whys of different conformation characteristics. And to see the situations where those characteristics have been taken too far - and situations where we’ve lost sight of less obvious characteristics (such as temperament).

There are 2 separate things to take into consideration:
1 - conformation that maximizes long-term soundness
2 - conformation that makes a horse move according to what the discipline is looking for

Both of those can, and should, exist within the confines of what is considered correct conformation. That does’t mean that the horses will all look the same, because it’s the variances within correct conformation which make a horse look and move differently.

I think we need to be careful we don’t mix up these 2, and say that the sickle hocks on a reining horse is correct for that discipline, because no matter the discipline, it’s still a flaw, incorrect. It may be a common trait, but that doesn’t make it correct, as it decreases the changes of long-term soundness.

Common doesn’t mean that’s how it should be, just how it is.

Feet need to be a certain size relative to the body weight, or it’s a flaw. It doesn’t matter if a given breed has more upright, smaller feet, if those feet are still too small. More upright can still be correct, as long as it means the bony column is aligned, and they aren’t getting outside of the normal deviations of feet that maximize soundness.

[MysticOakRanch]

@JB

There are 2 separate things to take into consideration:
1 - conformation that maximizes long-term soundness
2 - conformation that makes a horse move according to what the discipline is looking for

Both of those can, and should, exist within the confines of what is considered correct conformation. That does’t mean that the horses will all look the same, because it’s the variances within correct conformation which make a horse look and move differently.

I think we need to be careful we don’t mix up these 2, and say that the sickle hocks on a reining horse is correct for that discipline, because no matter the discipline, it’s still a flaw, incorrect. It may be a common trait, but that doesn’t make it correct, as it decreases the changes of long-term soundness.

Common doesn’t mean that’s how it should be, just how it is.

Feet need to be a certain size relative to the body weight, or it’s a flaw. It doesn’t matter if a given breed has more upright, smaller feet, if those feet are still too small. More upright can still be correct, as long as it means the bony column is aligned, and they aren’t getting outside of the normal deviations of feet that maximize soundness.

Yes, I basically said the same thing (a) and (b). And also pointed out that the WB inspection process doesn’t always look for “long term soundness” either. Of course, sickle hock isn’t ideal for long term soundness, but it can help for that specific discipline’s requirements. Big movement isn’t ideal for long term soundness either, but it helps in dressage competition. We (humans) breed for money - what sells. And what sells is the competitive edge.

[Scribbler]

@MysticOakRanch

Yes, I basically said the same thing (a) and (b). And also pointed out that the WB inspection process doesn’t always look for “long term soundness” either. Of course, sickle hock isn’t ideal for long term soundness, but it can help for that specific discipline’s requirements. Big movement isn’t ideal for long term soundness either, but it helps in dressage competition. We (humans) breed for money - what sells. And what sells is the competitive edge.

My point was not that we should send stock horses to be evaluated as Oldenburgs.

It was just that a strictly enforced registry that had both conformation and performance requirements is a better safeguard of quality than a pedigree only registry that allows low end breeders to perpetuate poor quality horses.

Obviously the confirmation and performance requirements need to be both sensible in themselves, and appropriate to the discipline. The WB registries are more interested in building a better English sport horse than in preserving a “pure” bloodline, so they allow approved TB in.

Obviously the resulting horses will only be as good as the human guidance in creating them. But the European breeders have been successful in creating horses that dominate international competition. Of course this also involves culling a certain % from the European breeding pool.

It is possible that the WB will hit a limit past which huge height and huge gaits start to take a toll on soundness. At the moment they seem to hold up as well to the work into their mid/late teens as any other breed doing that work.

I like a good QH and I don’t particularly love WBs. But I see so many rather awful QH especially at the low end. I also see what gets called a WB in North American pedigree registries that don’t have European qualification rigor behind them, and they are not of international calibre.