Confusion over turn on the haunches, and other Dover Medal Finals questions/discussion

[Allusion]

I’m hoping the wonderful people here at COTH can explain a few things to me, in general and specifically relating to the Dover Medal Finals yesterday. Note: I am not an EQ person, never did the junior medals thing, please excuse my ignorance as I’m trying to learn. I have been reading a few FB threads pertaining to the rides and placing, and have some questions:

• turn on the haunches: I was taught that a turn on the haunches is a distinct pivot movement where the forehand moves around the pivoted haunches, whereas a pirouette is where forward movement is maintained and the hind legs make a smaller circle than the front legs. However, some people have been saying that the walk pirouette was correct, or more correct than doing a pivot - which is right? (Arguably the pirouette is a more difficult movement to perform correctly) Most riders in the test performed what I would call a walk pirouette, and the only rider that did a distinct pivot was Jordan.

• What made Emma pin over Jordan in the test phase? To my eye, Jordan had a smoother test and executed the test exactly as the judges instructed, unless as above the turn on the haunches should have maintained forward movement… I am not saying the judging was wrong but rather looking to tune my eye. Didn’t Emma have a chip, and have her horse step off its lead briefly? (Going off of memory from last night, pre-thanksgiving dinner & wine so may be misremembering)

• Sam did not execute a turn on the haunches at all, no matter how you slice it. How did he pin over riders who did? My assumption is that this is due to a cumulative points thing throughout all phases, but shouldn’t the non-haunch-turn been penalized heavily?

• counter canter: in the second phase, the riders were asked to counter canter to two fences off a serpentine; some riders executed this darn near flawlessly, doing a flying change to the first counter canter (right lead) then landing on the left lead and maintaining it through the entire second loop, or landing right and changing to left early so they did actually complete the serpentine turn on the counter canter. My question is about the second loop: many riders did a walk transition and waited until they were done the bottom end of the loop, then asked for the left lead - to me, that doesn’t demonstrate a counter canter but rather that the rider could ask for the left lead out of a right hand turn. Asking for and maintaining the left lead through the loop is much harder… and some riders did it… but the late ask seemed entirely fine to do? Why risk the counter canter through the loop when you could just walk the loop and then ask for the lead, which is much easier to do?

I’m not trying to overtly criticize the judging or final placings, no doubt each rider in attendance was highly skilled and trying to pin top riders and decide who was just that much better is a tough task… I’m hoping to understand a bit more and learn.

[kmwines]

For the counter canter question- if all things were equal otherwise, yes showing the counter lead around the loop would be the more difficult and higher ranking move. I believe the instructions just called for the fence to be jumped on the counter lead so the walk transition could have been done at any time. I felt some did walk longer than a true simple change and hedged their bets a bit on placement of the transition. BUT that would be judging that one movement in a vacuum, there were lots of other fences that would move a rider up or down in addition to that “test”.

For the Emma over Jordan, the judges were sitting in a different vantage point than the live feed camera so they may have seen things differently. A distance that’s tight on our feed may not look that tight from their perspective. And she may have been much more ahead going into the workoff than we know.

i believe one of the other riders (the first one?) did not walk on the return track to the a/b element so she was automatically in 6th. So even though Sam did not perform much of a turn on the haunches it wasnt enough to drop him more since everything else was very good.

[joiedevie99]

A walk pirouette and a turn on the haunches are the same type of movement. The pivot - where a single hind leg plants and the horse moves around that leg (not maintaining the walk rhythm) is only shown in western I believe.

The difference between TOH and walk pirouette is in size, not in kind. The pirouette is more advanced, and is ridden from a collected walk. This allows the horse to take much smaller steps behind, keeping the hind end essentially in place. The turn on the haunches is ridden from a medium walk - so the horse is taking larger steps behind. Instead of stepping essentially in place, the hind legs make a small circle.

[poltroon]

A turn on the haunches should not be a pivot - it should maintain stepping by the hind legs. A turn on the haunches allows for a larger circle by the hind end than a walk pirouette.

[snaffle1987]

turn on the haunches is executed with forward impulsion, pause, and front legs will pivot around the inner hind leg. the front legs should move in relatively slow, rhythmic and even movement maintaining the rhythm of the walk while moving around the inner hind leg. there should be no clear backwards movement in the hind end during the movement. The turn should be relatively stationary if not stepping forward slightly as the horse moves through the turn, not large. The horse should continue to step actively.

Walk Pirouette and Turning on the Haunches is essentially the same thing

[findeight]

Test Rider A can come in with say, for the sake of simplicity, 100 points. Test Rider B comes in with 95 points. Rider A can score 4 points less then Rider B in the test portion and still retain the high score. Again, that’s simplified.

Another thing is judges reward riders in all phases who add difficulty to the basic questions asked on the course diagram. If rider A pics up a counter canter crisper and earlier then rider B and holds it longer around a corner then rider B, both answered the question correctly but rider A scores higher giving themselves more room to absorb minor flaws. These minor details can be hard to see streaming. They all will make minor mistakes and that involves judges preference. Sometimes judges don’t agree which small mistake is worse then another minor mistake. Sometimes it’s the horse that makes a mistake too and that can factor in.

I’d love to see their notes…

[IPEsq]

After taking some dressage lessons, I discovered I was pivoting too much in the haunches in compared to how the movement is described. It’s also not the same as a walk pirouette which starts from collected walk and has a smaller turning radius. I didn’t watch the test so can’t comment on who did it better or worse or not at all.

From USDF documents:

The turn on the haunches is an exercise that prepares the horse for collection. The turn on the haunches is performed in the medium walk. The forehand describes a small half circle around the hind legs. The diameter of the turn is one meter. The rhythm of the walk (4 time) is maintained, with the inner hind leg stepping up and down, and the outside hind leg making a small half circle around the inner hind leg. The hind legs should not cross. The forelegs move forward and sideways and cross one in front of the other. The center of the turn is close to the inner hind leg, which means that the horse moves onto a track the width of its body away from the original track. As a result, the ending of the movement requires that the horse steps slightly sideways back to the track.

It is very important that the walk rhythm is maintained, so sticking with a hind leg is a serious fault, as is stepping backwards. Other common faults include performing a small half circle, the horse throwing itself around the turn, losing activity of the walk, and a lack of obedience to the aids.

[Renn_aissance]

A turn on the haunches is executed from a medium walk. The horse clearly maintains a distinct four-beat walk while describing a track of a circle whose diameter is 1 meter. The horse’s front legs cross over each other, the outside hind leg steps in a small circle around the inside hind leg, and the inside hind leg steps in rhythm but is placed back in the same point in space as it was when it lifted.

In contrast, the walk pirouette is done from collected walk and the diameter of the turn is smaller.

In either case the integrity of the four-beat walk is important. Planting the inside leg and turning it by pivoting in the ground, rather than lifting and replacing the inside hind leg, is a major fault. (Jordan’s turn started correctly but pivoted on the inside hind foot in several steps, then finished by correctly lifting and replacing the inside hind leg.)

If you ask me, which no one showing yesterday actually did, Emma’s turn showed correct action of the walk but was too large and the horse was not straight on approach (he came into the box on two tracks.) This was why I favored Jordan’s turn over Emma’s turn despite the major fault: the purpose of the turn on haunches as a training exercise is to improve balance and straightness and prepare the horse for collection by developing lightness, so coming in without a straight horse didn’t show understanding of the exercise. It was also Emma’s second error in balance and straightness (landing on the split lead was the first) and for that reason I preferred Jordan’s ride, which had one major error as opposed to a major (split lead) and two minor (straightness and size.) However, as is eminently obvious, I am not in charge. And Emma’s second round was just brilliant and may have left her with a sizeable margin that in the judges’ eyes someone would have had to have no errors to catch her.

On Sam. A couple of riders failed to execute one of the instructions. Zayna didn’t walk, Erin did her turn on the haunches outside the box (loss of control or bad planning.) Absent the turn on the haunches, Sam had a better test in other respects than those two “failure to execute” errors, and was also called back ahead of both of them. He remained ahead of the group who had similar errors. I suspect he stayed ahead of Tessa because he had sufficient margin to remain that way, although at my keyboard, he made me so mad by throwing it away that I’d have had him fourth. See above wherein no one is actually asking me.

The counter-canter. Riders were explicitly told that however they got the counter lead was acceptable. Absent the instruction to do it, any way they chose was appropriate. Riders could show particular competence or outright brilliance by choosing one of the more difficult options. It’s like doing the inside turn. Unless the course designer imposes a dotted line, however you get to the jump is up to you, but you can get brownie points for picking the harder option.

[Janet]

• turn on the haunches: I was taught that a turn on the haunches is a distinct pivot movement where the forehand moves around the pivoted haunches, whereas a pirouette is where forward movement is maintained and the hind legs make a smaller circle than the front legs

This is backwards, and neither is done as a pivot (with one hind foot fixed).

In the turn on the haunches, the hind feet maintain the walk rhythm, and describe a small circle.

In a half pirouette the hind feet maintain the walk rhythm, but the inside hind steps into its own footprint on each step.

[Janet]

What made Emma pin over Jordan in the test phase?

According to the COTH coverage, the judge said that Emma’s turn on the haunches was better.

https://www.chronofhorse.com/article…n-for-fletcher

“I think what really nailed it for the girl that won was her turn on the haunches,” said Kip Rosenthal, who judged the class with Cynthia Hankins and Chance Arkelian. “She did that beautifully. Her jumps were very nice. And her turn on the haunches in our opinion was a real turn on the haunches."

[merrygoround]

TOH is an early move that teaches the horse to move away from a drawn back leg. The hind feet must move in rhythm, as the forehand turns around the hindquarter.

Pirouette s come from a medium walk, to a collected walk and the hind feet must step in place. It is a much smaller circle described by the hind feet.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

@Renn/aissance

The counter-canter. Riders were explicitly told that however they got the counter lead was acceptable. Absent the instruction to do it, any way they chose was appropriate. Riders could show particular competence or outright brilliance by choosing one of the more difficult options. It’s like doing the inside turn. Unless the course designer imposes a dotted line, however you get to the jump is up to you, but you can get brownie points for picking the harder option.

It seemed to me that as the second round progressed and more pairs had fairly major struggles between jumps 4 and 5, the strategy to walk the turn inside the trot jump and then pick up the “counter lead” when fairly straight to jump 5 emerged. To me this was not a true counter canter because there was no need to maintain it around any bend, and there really isn’t a right or wrong lead on a straight line. Of course, no one asked me either

[Tackpud]

There was also the loss of the canter lead to the final fence in the work off by one of the riders - think she placed 5th. That’s a major fault so she was placed accordingly. Sam had a few points to spare going into the test, so his lack of a turn on the haunch was one poor movement versus others with small errors in multiple movements. (forgetting to canter past the others before the turn on the haunch, less correct canter to walk to canter transitions, not great turns on the haunch, not doing the turn within the box of plants, etc.)

The counter canter is performed through a turn, so those riders who held the left lead through the tight turn to fence 5 in the second round were rewarded for their effort. Those who walked until they were straight to the jump were dropped out of the placings for the most part from what I could tell.

Sitting where the judges were probably offered a completely different perspective on the turns on the haunch and gave them the information they needed to pin the class. All of the top riders are lovely to watch and performed incredibly well under pressure. Congratulations to them all!

[Renn_aissance]

One thing’s for sure, after running my mouth the last 24 hours about the execution of the turn on the haunches, I’m going to throw some rails on the ground the next time I get on my horse and school that set of counter-canters, including landing the outside lead and holding it around such a short turn for the left lead rollback to the second Swedish. That’ll shut me up.

(My horse is a canny old equitation horse and he’s used to me doing nonsense like this after every finals.)

[MHM]

@Renn/aissance

One thing’s for sure, after running my mouth the last 24 hours about the execution of the turn on the haunches, I’m going to throw some rails on the ground the next time I get on my horse and school that set of counter-canters, including landing the outside lead and holding it around such a short turn for the left lead rollback to the second Swedish. That’ll shut me up.

(My horse is a canny old equitation horse and he’s used to me doing nonsense like this after every finals.)

I just had to laugh at this post. Your horse probably rolls his eyes at this time of year as the days get shorter. :lol:

[joiedevie99]

@Renn/aissance

One thing’s for sure, after running my mouth the last 24 hours about the execution of the turn on the haunches, I’m going to throw some rails on the ground the next time I get on my horse and school that set of counter-canters, including landing the outside lead and holding it around such a short turn for the left lead rollback to the second Swedish. That’ll shut me up.

(My horse is a canny old equitation horse and he’s used to me doing nonsense like this after every finals.)

I love this! I’m predominantly a dressage rider now, but I still torture my horses with these exercises (over poles) after finals. If anyone else is inspired to work on their counter canter after this, I can throw in one more fun one from dressage land (it’s in the current 4th level test 3) that would set this up well. Canter up the rail and make a half 10 meter circle to the centerline on the true lead and then a half 10 meter circle on the counter lead. Do a flying change and repeat from the other side. There is a diagram of it at the end of this article (and lots of other exercises): https://dressagetoday.com/instruction/exercises-develop-horses-straightness-collection-george-williams

[Renn_aissance]

@MHM

I just had to laugh at this post. Your horse probably rolls his eyes at this time of year as the days get shorter. :lol:

He actually gets a kick out of it. His main job these days is to be a professor for my mom, who’s a re-rider having a great time getting back in the tack, but as he’s highly overqualified for 2’ speedbumps he likes the novelty. The only problem is that then he goes into his lesson with my mom and when she gets a little loose in her leg he throws out a half-pass or swaps to the counter-lead on the straight line or whatever he has plausible deniability that she asked for. Her instructor thinks it’s hilarious. :lol:

[Allusion]

Thank you everyone for the informative responses, I have lots to ponder!