Contact - Let's discuss

[pluvinel]

@strangewings

If you think of a horse that naturally evades by ducking behind contact or “dropping the bit”, which can be a matter of mm’s of flexion at the poll, you can train a horse without those natural inclinations to behave that way by overemphasizing “lightness” to contact “in a vacuum”. This is more or less what I mean by “artificial” because you can teach an evasion you don’t want.

Ok…thank you. That is helpful to get our definitions clear. I my mind, that would be a horse that is ducking contact so we are in agreement here. My experience is that these horses are typically behind the leg. I also have been there…done that. I had a huge Hanoverian that looked lovely per today’s judging. However, what he was doing was going slightly BTV, ducking contact and leaving his hind legs in the back forty. The correction for this was to send the horse forward until we had “contact”…then asking horse to maintain his balance…with the hind legs underneath him.

@strangewings

What I want from lightness is that the horse has learned that I will provide the freedom to use his own neck in balancing himself, which is what creates opportunity to me to provide very precise and refined aids to influence his balance in precise and refined ways with very small signals. The latter is enabled by the former.

Agreed

@strangewings

One example of the role of “following contact” that should not be controversial is that the horse needs to learn to extend the outside of the neck on a bending line. By teaching the horse that you will make room for them in bending, they are better able to learn the role of their neck in balance in turns.

See here is where PERHAPS…we might have different expectations. I expect the request for “bending” to come from the seat and leg aids. If the horse gets heavy when asked to take a bending line, then the rein aids come into play to tell the horse, “No, carry your own head.”

@strangewings

This is a precursor to self carriage,

This is what I mean by using the rein aids to tell the horse to carry their own head…eg., to be in “self carriage.”

@strangewings

also is required for throughness in lengthenings and extensions.

In my mind, this comes from seat and legs.

@strangewings

When the horse is taking ownership of his own balance in this process, you give and they “follow”, the “pushing away” vs. “following the rein” feeling is different based on how through they are across the entire topline.

Agree on horse taking responsibility for their own balance. I don’t worry so much about the “topline.” If the horse is in balance and the hind legs are underneath themself, then the horse is capable of moving in any direction…it actually feels like a horse that is gathered underneath itself and feels like a horse that is ready to bolt. They are not going to bolt, but the horse is connected front to back and ready to depart in any gait, from piaffe to gallop.

@strangewings

FWIW, the “conventional” lessons I have had have tended to want a harder, less following outside rein. There may be a role for that at times, but the correct relationship between giving and taking is what builds the communication you are talking about.

Agree…which is why I started this thread and why I find the discussion we are having very interesting.

@strangewings

I would also not confuse the ways people misuse exercises like long and low with the absence of value in the philosophy of the exercise.

I use “long and low” as a reward for correct work to allow the horse to relax its muscles and its mind.

Thanks for your thoughts…hope some of my clarifications were useful.

[Lunabear1988]

Thank you for a great discussion! I love reading this type of threads.

[strangewings]

@pluvinel

See here is where PERHAPS…we might have different expectations. I expect the request for “bending” to come from the seat and leg aids. If the horse gets heavy when asked to take a bending line, then the rein aids come into play to tell the horse, “No, carry your own head

You ask with seat and leg. The outside rein follows so the horse learns he can step forward “into contact” and it will yield. He can’t learn to carry his own head if the outside rein is braced against him.

[strangewings]

@pluvinel

In my mind, this comes from seat and legs

When developing the gait in training, particularly the early phases, there is an important role for a following hand in supporting the change in balance. You ask with the seat and legs. It is supporting the balance through a following contact. I think this may be what is described as recycling the energy, but I find that description misleading.

[strangewings]

@pluvinel

Thanks for your thoughts…hope some of my clarifications were useful.

Yes! Thanks! It’s nice to think through these things and put them in words. I’ve struggled with contact a lot over the years, and am having some moments of clarity on the subject lately!