Contact - Let's discuss

[pluvinel]

I come from the philosophy that the ideal for “contact” is the weight of the reins…unless one needs a rebalancing aid.

There are 3 past threads on the topic.

Let’s discuss CONTACT! - Dressage - Chronicle Forums

Contact/‘On the bit’ Discussion - Dressage - Chronicle Forums

Contact and self carriage discussion please - Dressage - Chronicle Forums

The responses seem to vary all over as to how much “weight” should be in the hand. I thought it might be interesting to revisit the topic.

What say everyone?

[Mondo]

I say it depends entirely on the level of training of the horse in question. The weight of the reins (IMHO) is the goal, not the starting point.

[pluvinel]

@Mondo

I say it depends entirely on the level of training of the horse in question. The weight of the reins (IMHO) is the goal, not the starting point.

I don’t disagree…but…but…if we are talking about “level”…have you seen the GP dressage horses with crank nosebands and riders water skiing on the reins?

If we describe “contact” as “connection” between horse and rider, then the contact on the reins needs to be as much as necessary but as little as possible.

In a young horse, one does not throw away the reins. A rider may need to “rebalance” the horse. But that lightness in connection doesn’t happen overnight. From the day you first sit on their backs, the horse needs to understand that they need to be in self-carriage and the rider will not carry their head.

[atlatl]

@pluvinel

If we describe “contact” as “connection” between horse and rider, then the contact on the reins needs to be as much as necessary but as little as possible.

This ^^ although it’s hard to know how much is necessary. If it were easy, anyone could do it!

[outerbanks77]

I like the description of the rein contact feeling like having a lively fish on the line. So the question is what size fish? Certainly not a marlin, but maybe a medium-sized trout for me.

I think it also depends on the horse though. When my mare is really through in her trot work the contact is pretty solid, but doesn’t feel heavy. She is a 17H warmblood schooling 2nd/3rd, and has always tended towards very light in the contact. I ride her in a Winderen rubber bit. Would not expect solid contact from her in a metal bit.

[Cowgirl]

For me, it is less about the weight of the reins and more about the feeling of elasticity. I should be able to totally relax my arm and the horse should be drawing on the bit in an elastic way. Some horses will engage my core more than others in this state.

Each horse is different in how you establish the throughness that leads to the elastic feeling in the reins: some need bending, some need driving, some need transitions, some need stretching, some need relaxation, some need more firmness, some need releases, etc., and any combination.

[Pehsness]

Honestly, contact feels like an elusive concept that we’ll strive for forever and never quite grasp.

I’m always aiming for just steady. Not heavy, just steady. Constant. Always there.

We waffle between reins flapping in the wind and him insisting I have a death grip. There seems to be milliseconds of correct in between.

[Pehsness]

Can you expound on the bit? Did you stumble on the bit improving contact or is rubber worth trying on all horses?

[mvp]

More later, but I like it when you can feel the vibrations of their teeth come together gently in rhythm with the trot. I think that comes from a relaxed jaw and tongue. That’s the kind of “open to communication with your hand” that I want to feel from a horse.

[exvet]

I’ll bite because this is exactly what I’m focusing on right now in a sense. I’m going to preface this by saying as others, is so much depends on the horse and where they are in their training and where they are in their balance and use of their body. I agree wholeheartedly with as much as you need and no more than necessary. My current main ride is a 10 year old home bred Welsh Cob. His acceptance of contact has been a bit of a journey. I recently sold my 7 year old Morgan. He too was a bit of a process when it came to connection and on the bit. In fact, he went best in a bosal but I digress. Both of these boys are the type who prefer ‘silk’ ribbons for contact. Both are very affable and try very hard to please to the point of anticipating what you want and then giving you what they’re SURE you REALLY want LOL. Both can be ridden off of seat alone that is probably where I’ve made some mistakes with each of them. My current guy is working 4th level. His go to whenever anything gets tough, difficult, harder work than he thinks he really should be required to do is to use the base of his neck. He shrinks his whole head and neck back into the base of his neck and uses that leverage to pick up his forehand. So with that type of ride, I absolutely must worry about forward (rhythm isn’t a problem) first and foremost. We work through exercises focusing on getting him supple along with forward and then we address contact and connection. The weight in the reins never gets very heavy but I must be there to recycle the energy if I have any hope of keeping him over his back. I also must really weight my elbows and keep my seat very well connected in order to generate the forward (I could kick until the cows come home and that won’t necessarily work though I can and do get him hot off my leg - think PONY) and the coming from behind that gets him to life his shoulders properly. Sitting isn’t a problem for him and never has been. I will say that generally the weight in my hands is the reins and only momentarily as necessary it’s any heavier. I can’t crank and spank him due to his conformation. I really do have to invite him to come up and lift in front and gently land into my hands. His stress mode is to clack his teeth and suck his tongue which also tells me he’s tight in his back. Heavier weight in the hands will not fix that. Breaking things down and explaining things to him step by step and then adding contact to the mix is the only thing that has allowed us to progress. I, of course, have had others who weren’t quite so ‘light’ but none of my guys (or gals) have been ‘heavy’ in the reins despite in the very beginning when being on their forehand is a given.

[outerbanks77]

@Pehsness

Can you expound on the bit? Did you stumble on the bit improving contact or is rubber worth trying on all horses?

I went through many different bits with my mare her first three years under saddle. Eventually did a clinic with an international GP rider who suggested a rubber bit. I got a Bombers first, and it made a world of difference, but she chewed it up after about six months, so I switched to the Winderen this spring. As my regular trainer says, she no longer looks like she’s constantly trying to spit the bit out.

[VodkaRedbullx2]

Contact changes with self carriage and as you go up the levels and become a better rider. It also varies on your arm length and your horses trsining level and conformation. My goal this winter is to do my flying changes without changing my contact-or connection. I was watching those grandprix riders at hernig and Lyon and that contact/connection never changes throughout the changes. It is all seat and leg and the connection up front stays the same.

[Pehsness]

Oh, you’ve mentioned arm length. I have terribly short arms (proportionate, I’m just short). So when I’m trying to follow the contact or encourage long and low I’m really reaching. I don’t know what to do about that other then get a short necked horse.

[RedHorses]

@VodkaRedbullx2

My goal this winter is to do my flying changes without changing my contact-or connection. I was watching those grandprix riders at hernig and Lyon and that contact/connection never changes throughout the changes. It is all seat and leg and the connection up front stays the same.

When you say this do you mean you want to do changes without any rein aids?

[pluvinel]

@RedHorses

When you say this do you mean you want to do changes without any rein aids?

Is this a bad thing? I would think this is what you look for in Objectives of Article 401

ARTICLE 401 OBJECT AND GENERAL PRINCIPLES OF DRESSAGE

1. The object of Dressage is the development of the Horse into a happy Athlete through harmonious education. As a result, it makes the Horse calm, supple, loose and flexible, but also confident, attentive and keen, thus achieving perfect understanding with the Athlete.

2. The Horse thus gives the impression of doing, of its own accord, what is required. Confident and attentive, submitting generously to the control of the Athlete, remaining absolutely straight in any movement on a straight line and bending accordingly when moving on curved lines.

Here is Alizee Froment riding her GP horse Mistral after his retirement. Look at about 2:40 where he starts doing tempi changes. The video is in slow motion. Change playback speed to 2x and it plays at normal speed.

This is what I would aspire to do. The horse is connected and in perfect understanding with its rider.

"Because now we are free to be simply us" - Grand prix dressage movements with a...

How about this one?

Muito obrigado ao Cavalo Lusitano pelos momentos únicos que tenho vivido ao...

So…do we need “rein contact?”

[pluvinel]

@exvet

I’ll bite because this is exactly what I’m focusing on right now in a sense.

Exvet…here is something for you to work on

https://www.facebook.com/manuelborba.veiga/videos/3584813288411076

[exvet]

LOL, in MY next life.

[RedHorses]

It was a question to clarify because your original answer was ambiguous. No need to get defensive.

Even the rules you quoted talk about giving the appearance of performing without direction from the rider. Appearance is not the same as what’s actually happening.

Take your Grand Prix flying changes. The appearance is the rider is not communicating anything to the horse through the reins. The horse is fully aware of the communication that is coming through the reins, whether the rider is aware of it or not (usually not - at that level the subtleties of what they’re doing with their bodies is lost as the whole collection has become doing the thing). Claiming to not be using the reins to communicate at all is misleading to riders learning how to do things, and brings difficulties when they attempt to do nothing with their rein contact.

I do think this is an important distinction to make in a discussion about contact, which probably also should be distinct from connection.

Having the connection with your horse to be able to give the appearance of doing nothing to guide them is a fantastic feeling,and I agree that it’s something to strive for.

[pluvinel]

@RedHorses

It was a question to clarify because your original answer was ambiguous. No need to get defensive.

I am not “getting defensive.” I thought I answered your question

@RedHorses

When you say this do you mean you want to do changes without any rein aids?

as a definitive “YES”…as shown by the Alizee Froment and Manuel Borba videos.

@RedHorses

Even the rules you quoted talk about giving the appearance of performing without direction from the rider. Appearance is not the same as what’s actually happening.

If a horse can feel a fly, they can feel the slightest movement from a human…thus why I am asking the question about “contact.” In all the clinics I have attended (including being 2nd level demo rider for the L-Program) contact has been defined by some version of weight in the reins.

@RedHorses

Take your Grand Prix flying changes. The appearance is the rider is not communicating anything to the horse through the reins. The horse is fully aware of the communication that is coming through the reins, whether the rider is aware of it or not (usually not - at that level the subtleties of what they’re doing with their bodies is lost as the whole collection has become doing the thing). Claiming to not be using the reins to communicate at all is misleading to riders learning how to do things, and brings difficulties when they attempt to do nothing with their rein contact.

I am proposing that “contact” is really “connection” and the you don’t need weight in the reins…well, obviously the weight of the reins themselves. And that a subtle rider gives invisible aids (see Borba videos)…vs some of the GP riders flinging legs asking for changes.

@RedHorses

Having the connection with your horse to be able to give the appearance of doing nothing to guide them is a fantastic feeling,and I agree that it’s something to strive for.

We agree. It is very hard to “do more nothing” and give the horse the benefit of the doubt that he is listening. Then again, I like hot reactive horses.

[Zonderpaard]

Way back when, I put a lot of emphasis on just following the horse’s mouth and not doing anything. The ability to follow and maintain a level consistent contact is fundamental. Hard because people are impatient and they are looking right at the head and neck. Once you can do nothing, then you can do something USEFUL. I think lots of riders put weight on the reins without having ‘feel’ or being able to just follow and listen. Problematic in many ways. Sometimes this is really a lack of decent school horses. But I digress.

I think specifying a maximum weight in ounces is perhaps a red herring for the level of responsiveness. Some horses will probably put some weight in the bridle yet be highly responsive. But a wrestling match is no fun for anybody.