Contacted heels or no?

[Nezzy]

I had my horse’s shoes pulled for winter. I had purchased some easyboot gloves to give his feet a rest from shoes. As i was taking pics of the foot, a different farrier came to me and said he has contracted heels. I was shocked bc #1, he is sound. #2, my farrier is one of the better farriers in the area. So why didn’t HE tell me or talk to me about this, if it is correct? If i can figure out how to post pics i will.

So if he does have contracted heels, what can i do to fix this? I plan to keep him barefoot all winter.

[JB]

Yes, they’re contracted. The heels are underrun, and the toe is long. Long-term poor trimming, saddly far too common

It’s a pretty simple (doesn’t mean quick) fix. Trim toes and heels where they belong.

To get an idea how much toe there is - the end of the bars* is roughly the middle of the true frog length, and is also roughly the middle of the foot. There should be no more than 50% of the length of the foot in front of that line.

*end of bars is where they meet the sole, not any overgrown length
**frog length is back of frog to the true apex, where it meets the sole, not any overgrown length

@Nezzy

I was shocked bc #1, he is sound. #2, my farrier is one of the better farriers in the area. So why didn’t HE tell me or talk to me about this, if it is correct?

either he’s bilaterally unsound, so doesn’t present as unsound, or the internal damage just hasn’t caught up to him yet

“one of the better farriers” doesn’t say much, and it appears in this case to mean he’s really just maybe one of the least bad ones, unfortunately.

For now, I would go with this “different farrier” since he at least recognizes there’s a problem

[Nezzy]

Thanks. This sucks, bc i have had him as a farrier for 25 yrs and never had any issues. How do i now question his farriery skills? I hate confrontation. Crap. And to be honest, there are not that many farriers in my area, and how do I know who is good or not?

[Warmblood1]

I agree, they appear contracted, the heel is underrun and the toe is long. Generally, if the width of the frog is less than 1/3 of the frog’s length, it is contracted. Finding a farrier (or learning how to trim yourself) that can balance the hoof correctly is the first step to take. There may be a genetic propensity for contraction but poor trimming (like long toes) can certainly cause the heels to contract. Thrush will also make a healthy frog hard to achieve.

As far as going barefoot, there aren’t any studies that prove shoes cause contraction. Contraction is very common in the domestic horse, far less so in the feral horse. Take that for what you will. That may be because whatever component that is causing the horse to need shoes also encourages a contracted heel. Your horse might fare better barefoot, however, and removing the shoes might encourage the hoof the grow in a healthier way. But for sure, the horse needs a balanced trim first and foremost.

[Nezzy]

Thanks. Now, how do i know which farrier is a good one? I thought i had a great farrier for all this time. I am very frustrated. My poor horse.

[Nezzy]

Just spoke with my vet. She said my farrier is better than the other farrier and that you can’t tell if heels are contracted just in photos. She said the under run heels can cause that, and i should try to get that under control. So i am going to talk to my farrier when he is due back.

[JB]

@Nezzy

Just spoke with my vet. She said my farrier is better than the other farrier and that you can’t tell if heels are contracted just in photos.

the heels are CLEARLY contracted. The frog is telling the story if nothing else. It’s barely wider at the back than the tip (a bit of an exaggeration but not much). Healthy frogs are much wider at the back than this, club feet excepting

The heel bulbs are a bit pointy, another tell-tale of contracted heels. Healthy heel bulbs are softly rounded

@Nezzy

She said the under run heels can cause that, and i should try to get that under control.

She’s right on this. But it’s not JUST the heels. Those toes are super long

@Nezzy

So i am going to talk to my farrier when he is due back.

Good luck. IME, a farrier who clearly hasn’t seen what’s going on here, either can’t see it, or doesn’t care. There’s a very clear dishing in the profile of the hoof, and the toe is very clearly long when viewed from the bottom.

@Warmblood1

Contraction is very common in the domestic horse, far less so in the feral horse. Take that for what you will. That may be because whatever component that is causing the horse to need shoes also encourages a contracted heel

there are too many barefoot domestic horses with contracted heels to blame it on shoes.

Which feral horses are you referring to? Heels don’t tend to be contracted in horses who live in desert/rockier areas, because everything gets worn short, and there’s a TON of movement on firmer ground, which also encourages wide open heels.

But there are feral horses living on beaches who have long dished toes (because of little breakage) who tend to have some level of contraction

If this horse is sound without shoes, I’d definitely leave them off, to allow the footing to help with wear and regular “trimming” as best it can

[Warmblood1]

@JB

there are too many barefoot domestic horses with contracted heels to blame it on shoes.

Which feral horses are you referring to? Heels don’t tend to be contracted in horses who live in desert/rockier areas, because everything gets worn short, and there’s a TON of movement on firmer ground, which also encourages wide open heels.

But there are feral horses living on beaches who have long dished toes (because of little breakage) who tend to have some level of contraction

Environment is a huge factor in domesticated barefoot horses versus feral. Feral horses aren’t standing in stalls for 12-15 hours a day as an example. Regardless, there was a study done to try to disprove/prove whether or not shoes led to contraction (no studies have really done either), and that particular study showed less contraction in feral horses versus domesticated. I’m certain environment had a lot to do with it. I cannot recall the name of that study but maybe google will. Worth noting that those studies in feral horses showed many hoof abnormalities. They weren’t perfect feet. It also doesn’t surprise me that horses living in a wet, soft environment had issues with contracted heels.

ETA: just reread your response. I’m not saying the shoes cause contraction. I’m saying a genetic disposition that causes the horse to require shoes for whatever reason may also cause the hoof to be contracted. For example, a horse with navicular is generally going to do better in shoes, and horses with navicular generally tend to have crappy contracted frogs that grow a lot of toe with a tendency of an underrun heel.

[Warmblood1]

How did your vet say to determine if heels are contracted? I’m confused how photos couldn’t show that.

[Kyrabee]

Something you might consider in the meantime…get some SureFoot pads. Yes, they are expensive but you could just get 2. You can also do cheaper options but for what I am suggesting, the actual SureFoot pads (the green firm ones) worked for my mare.

My mare…barefoot since 6 and trimmed by the same trimmer for 15 years. She developed some ‘extra’ contraction. She has always had small, skinny feet…it is what she was born with. Maybe 4 years ago, I noticed she started getting this funky hook in her lateral bar and yes, the skinny frogs reappeared despite no change in the trim. I had gotten the Surefoot pads and was using them for the proprioception exercises when I noticed her heels were opening up! So I kept up with the pads. I would put her on them while I tacked up.

It certainly isn’t going to totally overcome the long toe and under run heels but maybe get those feet starting to think about spreading a bit.

There is a thread on the Surefoot pads going on presently.

Sure Foot Pads - Reviews, Knockoffs?

While I am trying to sort out my gelding’s NPA, I am looking for some less expensive ways to try and help his very tight muscles. I do stretches with him, Masterson Method etc but I feel like it’s not quite enough and I am intrigued by the sure foot pads. Has anyone bought them and genuinely seen a large difference? Was it hard to convince your horse to stand on them at first (my guy is pretty squirrelly about placing his feet where you want them)? Also, I see some knockoffs on Amazon as well …

[Nezzy]

I will share what my vet posted to me. The names of the farrier’s were blocked out, but she says that my current farrier is the better one. I am still trying to figure out what to do. My horse is boarded and he lives outside 24/7. Shelter, Covered hay feeder and auto waterer. I trail ride him 2x a week usually. I took him out barefoot the other day for a slow ride, and he did great. No signs of ouchy behavior at all. I did try to keep him on flat ground. I honestly have never had to deal with this, so i do want to work with my farrier. I now KNOW we have a problem, and i want him to understand that i know. If my vet can check in regularly, maybe we can figure this out without having to find someone else. He is kind of a “friend” after all these years. He goes to conferences every year. He is respected and well known in the local horse areas. That is why i am struggling. I know i will not accept this, and if he cannot help me or denies it is a problem, then i absolutely will find someone else. For now, i am just sad for my horse. I am hopeful being barefoot can help a bit.

[Kyrabee]

Barefoot will help with a better trim. The heels need to come back to the back of the frog and the long toe needs to go. Can you see the dip in the toe wall on the first picture? About halfway down the toe is pulling the wall away from the white line due to the long toe.

Here is one front on my small narrow footed horse. My trimmer moved out of the area and only comes every 8 weeks so I trim her in between. I sent these pics to her to makes sure I wasn’t doing anything heinous. These are not great. I should have tackled the medial (inside) bar and done some frog trimming and please don’t look at the rasp marks on the wall . This was my first full trim.

[JB]

@Warmblood1

ETA: just reread your response. I’m not saying the shoes cause contraction. I’m saying a genetic disposition that causes the horse to require shoes for whatever reason may also cause the hoof to be contracted. For example, a horse with navicular is generally going to do better in shoes, and horses with navicular generally tend to have crappy contracted frogs that grow a lot of toe with a tendency of an underrun heel.

I would bet that more than half the “navicular” cases are actually “caudal heel syndrome”, aka “sore heels” caused by poor trimming that causes the contracted heels (and almost always long toes). I don’t have any study to support that, and I do think that certain breeds are more prone to actual navicular disease, at least certain areas of some breeds. QHs for example - the Halter QH tends to be much more upright in pasterns and feet, which inherently leads to excessive concussion issues even just living. I honestly don’t know if there’s a genetic component for “navicular disease”, outside of the genetics of conformation. I don’t think there is.

Often, it’s a chicken and egg question - is the dysfunctional foot the result of poor trimming, of some pathology inside the foot, OR something somewhere else in the body that’s causing inappropriate loading.

[JB]

The heels ARE contracted. Period. There’s no maybe about it. What you can’t necessarily diagnose from a picture is the CAUSE of the contracted heels.

Yes, horses with underrun heels for long enough will develop contracted heels. Yes, this foot has underrun heels. ALL hoof material grows forward as it grows down. The more clubbed a foot, the less forward there is. The more “splat” a foot is, the more forward there is AND the more crushing of the heels there is.

The foot in your picture definitely has underrun heels BUT, those heels are also standing up pretty well, which means - too much foot is there. It’s not being trimmed properly each time (or there’s way too much time between trims and I don’t think that’s the case)

No, not all contracture can be fixed. Sometimes you improve it, and then you just manage it, as the hoof or the rest of the horse are constantly fighting against a healthy foot. That doesn’t appear to be the case here

Xrays area a GREAT idea.

I would NOT go by “if he’s sound, don’t change a thing” because it can take years of tiny but incremental damage to make the horse finally and “suddenly” appear unsound, when for the last 3 years (or whatever) he’s actually been mildly and bilaterally unsound, which means no limp, no apparent outward sign of unsoundness

I would NEVER wait until a horse is clinically lame to start working to improve feet. Ever.

[Warmblood1]

I agree with you @JB

OP, it would be one thing if the horse was trimmed correctly and had contraction. However, long toes and underrun heels compromise heel function. To say the contraction couldn’t improve is a little short sighted IMO considering it’s well known that long toes and low/underrun heels can cause contraction. This info may help you.

I’m also very curious as to how exactly this vet would diagnose contraction since they don’t believe one can evaluate contraction by looking at the hoof.

Also worth mentioning that not all vets specialize in podiatry or even know how to adequately access angles or how to correctly trim or do corrective work. I’ve had a pretty outspoken vet recommend farriers that I used “because they were the vet” and I was not happy with the results. I moved on. Actually, one of the best things I think I’ve done as an equestrian is learn how to properly trim my horse’s feet. I’ve had some very difficult horses hoof wise and about went insane having to deal with unreliable or not so great farriers.

@Kyrabee, I think you did a very nice job with your first full trim.

[Kyrabee]

@Warmblood1

having to deal with unreliable or not so great farriers

Thanks Warmblood1. I am doing bettter…getting a more complete job except in the summer, her feet are like rocks so I do pretty good to get a mm or two off.

Last year, my trimmer was hurt part of the year then decided she was moving. I tried 3 different farriers and each one was way less than helpful. One didn’t do much and I couldn’t get her boots on past 3 1/2 weeks. Usually I can use them for 5 weeks before they get too tight (5 weeks was our normal cycle). One took her way too short. Her boots were loose at the start of the cycle and still fitting at 7 1/2 weeks . The last one I asked to do her at 8 weeks after the one that got her so short. He shucked out some old sole and said she was fine. She was pretty long by now especially after he got rid of all the retained sole and not balanced at all after the previous hatchet job. After that I had had it…decided I couldn’t do any worse. I have watched Julie trim her for 16 years and she gave me a tutorial lesson before she moved. I do not plan on doing anybody else’s horse…just mine.

[Nezzy]

Thanks for the feedback. My vet didn’t say you could not tell by looking at them. What she said was you can’t tell from a photo. Which i sort of agree with, i would rather have an expert see him in person. Maybe she is just saying that to cover her butt. Idk.

I know there is a problem. I have been looking into a new farrier if my current farrier refuses to acknowledge that we have a problem. I am giving him one chance to give me a game plan for how we fix this. I have EasyBoot Gloves that fit my horse and i am going to try to use a pad with frog support. I will ride him with this to give his frog some contact for now. Maybe help with circulation. I am trying to research all i can. But to be honest, I really don’t know how to find the right farrier. I trust my vet, and she says my farrier is better than the other guy. But i do not know if there is a better option in my area. I am riding tomorrow and i will see how he does barefoot. The pads are on order, so i will see if he does ok barefoot again. This is going to be a process. Idk what i will do.

[Ziggy793]

I completely feel your pain, and like others here, I have started the journey to become competent enough to trim my own if/when needed (though I am not nearly as far into the journey as the other posters above!).

If you decide to find a new farrier, you might see if anyone affiliated with PHCP is nearby.
https://progressivehoofcare.org/directory/

In my experience, PHCP trimmers can be a bit militant in their anti-traditional shoe attitudes, but they do seem to really prioritize a good, correct trim and correct biomechanics. If you’re keeping your guy barefoot for the next while anyway, they could be a good resource. Obviously I can’t vouch for individuals beyond those I’ve worked with but PHCP does require some amount of education/training to be listed.

[JB]

@Nezzy

My vet didn’t say you could not tell by looking at them. What she said was you can’t tell from a photo. Which i sort of agree with,

In some angles you might not be able to tell, but in your solar view, it’s clear. The frog is also telling the story - it’s much too narrow at the back and has more of a crack in the rear vs a healthier “thumbprint in clay”

@Nezzy

Maybe she is just saying that to cover her butt. Idk.

Very possible. It IS always best to put the foot in hand to get more details

@Nezzy

I am giving him one chance to give me a game plan for how we fix this.

that’s always fair. I’ve seen a few cases where it seems the farrier was lax because he could be, because the owner didn’t know/care, and the horse was “fine”. But once it becomes apparent the owner has learned a few things, then they decide to up their game. Not ideal, since it means you have to make it known you’re always keeping your eyes open, but if they’re the only farrier or trimmer, then you do what you gotta do. It’s like making sure the crew building your house knows you’re watching LOL

@Nezzy

I have EasyBoot Gloves that fit my horse and i am going to try to use a pad with frog support. I will ride him with this to give his frog some contact for now. Maybe help with circulation.

Good idea to test it out. Just know that sometimes, these frogs are sore, and can’t take that sort of pressure, so keep an eye on things. Often, removing shoes which were just shoes, not frog support, and allowing the bare foot to have even more ground contact, will make improvements in that context. I would hand walk him for 20-30 minutes in those boots for a few days to get an idea of his comfort, then walk under saddle for a few days, just to see how things go

ELPO has a list of their farriers and trimmers if you want to see if someone is reasonably close. Don’t be afraid to reach out to someone who’s maybe 4-6 hours away - sometimes they make a travel circuit, or may know of someone not on the list but also good
https://www.lamenessprevention.org/uploaded_files/1287/custom/site_public_directory.cfm

[Warmblood1]

I also have horses with rock hard feet and if I’m tired or my rasp isn’t the sharpest, I’ll have them stand in water for a minute to soften the hooves. Also why I prefer to trim on a rainy day!