“Correct Dressage Schooling” Facebook page

[Jackie_Cochran]

Flame suit on.

I am convinced that too much sitting trot leads to brain damage from the pre-frontal cortex slamming against the skull. I also worry about the effects on the brain stem though I do not know enough about the brain stem to articulate what might be happening to it.

I came to this conclusion after my first foray into the COTH Forums when the Dressage section was full of people defending Rollkur. Their reactions to well-reasoned arguments were borderline abusive. I just could not understand this, yes, I know all riders have really deep seated beliefs, but the tone from hunt seat riders were no where near as vivid as from the dressage riders.

With my MS I just cannot afford more brain damage. My riding teachers know this. I can sit most trots (I have not tried with a WB with carriage horse action) but nowadays I totally refuse to sit the trot more than 6 strides, and on most days I will stop at three strides, even on horses with smooth sitting trots.

I only bring this up because I think it is important. I NEVER expect agreement about my equitation beliefs from most riders, but I was never expecting the type of disagreements to my “arguments” from these riders.

I have brain damage from my MS (and TBIs from falling off horses even when wearing riding helmets, all the sitting trot I used to do and the head on collision from a passed out drunk driver who plowed head on into my Ford Escort with a big American car.) I am not a doctor but certain behaviors remind me of myself before I learned to handle the brain damage from my MS and all of the above.

I realize most riders who sit the trot won’t listen to me, but if I can save a rider from brain damage the negative flack I get from saying this is worth it.

If I had a child who wanted to ride dressage my answer would be the same as when my oldest son, decades ago, mentioned going into football at high school and when he introduced the idea of him getting a motorcycle. I told him he had a good brain and I was NOT going to give him permission to destroy it.

Regular riding with a good riding helmet or a supposedly super secure saddle is dangerous enough to the human brain (falls.) I see no reason to add another thing that could damage my brain. This is a big part of the reason why I do not take dressage lessons, all the required sitting trot.

[K_VanOlst]

You are truly insane if you believe this. Seriously. You said it on a different thread, and it remains the most unhinged thing I’ve ever seen on CoTH and I followed the Nicky Pee Pee and LK threads full of houseguests.

[fenwai]

Okay so wait, are you saying that the reason you think that the sitting trot gives everyone brain injuries is because dressage folks are… cranky?

[Jackie_Cochran]

Some people are more resistant to physical damage. For instance, Podhajsky did not show such symptoms, at least as far as I can tell from his books and all I’ve read about him. He probably did a LOT more sitting trot in his lifetime than most riders.

However crankyness is not the main symptom I consider proof of possible damage. One thing I’ve noticed reading about the abusive dressage trainers written about on this Forum is that they often do not show consideration for the horses’ difficulties when the horses are metaphorically screaming about pain, disease, neurological problems or unsoundness.

This happens with most riding by the way. Brain damage is not necessary in producing horrible abusive riding, simple lack of empathy and deep desires to WIN!!! also play a role.

There is also the painful issue of people with back problems. I suspect that long times at a sitting trot may not be beneficial for people with spinal problems. I am also protecting my spine, which has MS lesions, from the sitting trot, plus sciliosis and damage from falls and the car wreck.

There are times however when the sitting trot is the best gait with which to explain a concept to the horse. I just try to limit the amount of it that I do when I ride.

[fenwai]

But you just said above that you determined the sitting trot causes brain damage because you came to an online forum and folks were defending rollkur. That’s a leap, to say the least.

[libgrrl]

Jackie,

That’s an interesting theory. However, I’m a bit older too, I also have scoliosis and some wonkiness in my L5-S1. If there is that much concussion that your brain is sloshing around, and your back is being pile-driven into the saddle, I might suggest that you are sitting the trot incorrectly. It shouldn’t be that way.

[Jackie_Cochran]

I lurked at first. I talked with my riding teacher about what I was reading and the videos I saw (she believes all hunt seat riders need to learn some dressage.) I read in many of my dressage books. I searched the web for information about modern competitive dressage riding.

Hunt seat riders also show problems with brain trauma from all those falls. Caprilli himself died rather young (early 40s?) after, from one book, around 400 falls over jumps while he figured the Forward Seat method of jumping out.

ALL riders show problems, or am I imagining all the storied I read on here from people who’ve ridden for decades about the damage their bodies accumulated?

You should have heard some of the discussions I’ve had with adult hunt seat riders.

There are many physical problems that tend to come with riding horses. This is just one of them.

Of course the horses make it worth it.

[Jackie_Cochran]

All I can say is that my riding teachers like my sitting trot back when I did a lot more of it. They like how the horses relax their backs under me. They still like my extremely short sitting trots nowadays.

It is not just the up and down motion that causes the brain to hit against the skull, it is also the more horizontal motion caused by the horses feet alternately braking and pushing while performing a gait.

[libgrrl]

I’ve been a hunt seat rider for most of my life, can’t afford that world anymore, so I’m currently transitioning to eventing/dressage. I’ve read Littauer, and that’s the way I rode for years. I appreciate your theory – I just don’t agree. Until I learned to absorb the trot, I didn’t sit much either.

[Jackie_Cochran]

Once I got my horse it took me a year or two to learn how to sit and absorb his slow trot. Once I understood that I had to move my hips with the horse’s back motions my horse’s performance improved at the sitting trot because I stopped bouncing on his back. I regularly sat the trot some daily for around 14 years before my wreck triggering my MS, wrecked my back, and eventually disabled me.

[libgrrl]

I’m sorry to hear that.

[enjoytheride]

There has never been and never will be any evidence that sitting trot causes brain damage. Because it doesn’t. I understand you have some other unique ideas on things which is likely why you get a lot of pushback (your beliefs on the double bridle) but this one has no basis in fact.

The idea that sitting the trot causes brain damage because some dressage people support Rolkur is ridiculous.

[VodkaRedbullx2]

Why does it have to be “sitting trot” as the cause to make people unhinged?
Maybe a lot of horse people drink to deal with all the crap they put up with and that turns them batty?
Maybe they dont eat all day and it wrecks their sugar so they get a little emotional sharp batty …

Maybe they are so stressed out about money they take it out on the horse so it overrides their "consideration " for the horse as you say.

Or maybe EAB is on the spectrum or has a mental illness that we don’t know about.

Tbis can make you a little batty… or slower to react and process which is opposite of most horse people.

[skydy]

@Jackie_Cochran

Once I got my horse it took me a year or two to learn how to sit and absorb his slow trot. Once I understood that I had to move my hips with the horse’s back motions my horse’s performance improved at the sitting trot because I stopped bouncing on his back. I regularly sat the trot some daily for around 14 years before my wreck triggering my MS, wrecked my back, and eventually disabled me.

You did not develop MS because of sitting the trot, either poorly or well.
As you say , perhaps your MS was “triggered” by your accident.

However, MS doesn’t require a “trigger” to begin the onset of symptoms, or of the brain imaging findings that are diagnostic of MS.

[Manni01]

Whatever….I am not in that group anymore anyhow and I am beyond disappointed by Kyra Kyrklund as well.

[Bogey2]

I have been back riding for over 30 yrs now and can tell you that I get hurt more on the ground than I do in the saddle.
I am also in much better shape than most of my friends at the age of 65 who did not ride.

[GraceLikeRain]

@Jackie_Cochran

I am convinced that too much sitting trot leads to brain damage from the pre-frontal cortex slamming against the skull. I also worry about the effects on the brain stem though I do not know enough about the brain stem to articulate what might be happening to it.

Whhhhaaat. Most wild comment I’ve seen on COTH in years.

By this same logic barrel racers are getting their brains sloshed along with show jumpers and endurance riders and anyone riding where there is any movement.

Heck, there are endurance riders who sit the entire ride. If 15 minutes of sitting trot causes prefrontal cortex damage over time their brains must be mush.

[Jackie_Cochran]

To clarify about “triggering” my MS. Since early childhood I was clumsy, had horrible balance, and I was not very well coordinated. I adapted as best I could, but I was usually the last one chosen for a team in gym class for the excellent reason that I just could not perform up to standard. My balance was pretty bad too and it got worse over the years.

I did learn physical movement to move within an acceptable standard (as in I did not need canes etc.,) and well enough to ride a decent horse adequately. I also worked from 40 to 60 hours a week, drove myself to an from the stable (30 to 60 mile round trip), raised 2 boys, and was one of the top performers in my job that required good 10-key skills and speed. On the other hand I was NOT a good typist, my left hand’s fingers just never got as agile as the fingers of my right hand.

My MS was already affecting my life and had for many years. The car wreck made it MUCH worse immediately. I am still dealing with the effects over 40 years since that car plowed head on into my car. Luckily I was wearing my shoulder harness seat belt or I would have died.

My ancestry also contributed to my MS. I am slightly over half Swiss, and most of the rest of my ancestry is German (mainly Black Forest region.) These areas have been noted in the literature of having large number of people/descendants that are liable to MS according to the several books on MS that I read.

After the wreck I was a wreck. My nervous system never recovered from the skull shaped lump in the windshield of my wrecked car. It took over 3 years for my back/spine/spinal cord to recover enough so I could ride without excruciating pain. My ability to react with smooth, accurate movements was badly compromised, and my already bad balance became a lot, lot worse.

Before my wreck my MS was not that active. The physical damage from the car wreck haunted my CNS for decades. My nervous system became super reactive in some cases, super unreactive in other cases. Eventually, after complaining for years to my PCPs about my symptoms and getting brushed off, I lost feeling in my left leg on the surface. 18 months later I asked for a referral to a chiropractor because contrary to the expectations of the PCPs I did NOT improve, got sent to a more orthopedic practice, and the NP there referred me to a neurologist because of the etiology and symptoms I presented.

MRI, phone call from my neurologist, I have MS, massive dose of corticosteroids, and I stopped degrading daily, and I started the long road back to actually riding horses again.

My horses “told me” that I had to change my riding. I listened to my horses. It was not pretty but I managed to stay on and in control. Then as my MS got worse I was not able to keep my own horses to riding standard of grooming and hoof care necessary for frequent riding, and when we could finally afford it I found the best stable I could afford, signed up for private lessons, and got back into riding.

My MS after my wreck turned me from a moderately effective and physically able rider who was able to saddle “break” the horses I raised from weanlings, into a wreck on horseback. The car wreck, and then my MS many of the riding abilities I had learned. I really needed regular riding lessons on somewhat quieter horses than my Arabs, part Arabs and Paso Fino. I NEEDED a position “nazi” because I lost my proprioceptive sense after the wreck. Because I rode the lesson horses humanely and listened to them, these noble riding school horses were kind to me in return when I got back into riding three years after the wreck and these horses worked with my position nazi teachers to get me back to riding more effectively.

May the Universe bless all lesson horses. We would not have a horse industry without them.

Without the lesson horses and my riding teachers I would have ended up in a nursing home many years ago. I will have humungous difficulties if my husband dies before me because I will not be able to do the work necessary for a half-way decent standard of living. At least I can still walk, and riding horses helps me recover whenever I have a MS exacerbation.

As for the cumulative brain damage that is possible in already compromised brains (TBIs) from the sitting trot, well as more knowledge has become available about treating people with TBIs there is a much greater emphasis on letting the brain heal completely before subjecting it to more mild bruising. The brain degradation from these physical “insults” can accumulate slowly over the decades, so slowly that it feels pretty “normal” to the person as that person adapts.

[skydy]

I’m sorry that you had a car crash that exacerbated your MS and has made riding difficult for you. I have a friend with MS and I know it’s no fun.

It may not be good for you, however a sitting trot does not cause the brain to impact the skull. I’m trying to imagine a scenario (that is within the realm of possibility) in which it would, and there really isn’t any.

It seems as though you are ascribing coup-contracoup injuries (the brain impacting the skull back and forth) to riders that sit the trot, and that’s just not happening. A coup-contracoup brain injury in adults requires a forceful impact to the head, or coming to a complete stop while traveling at a high rate of speed. That type of injury often causes damage to vision as well.

An infant that has been shaken vigorously can incur this sort of brain injury. Is that what you’re thinking of and relating it to adults sitting the trot?

[Jackie_Cochran]

MS, according to the literature I’ve read, causes brain shrinkage. I have also read that brains can shrink as people get older.

Riding decades ago I simply LOVED doing the sitting trot. It was so calming and relaxing so long as I rode well enough so that the horse’s back relaxed under my seat and its back swung. I did not do it all the time, but it was a nice break from the more physical posting and galloping. Back then my body did not protest at all once I learned to really follow the horse’s back.

Nowadays, even on horses with relatively pleasant sitting trot (for a lesson horse that is) my body starts nagging me about WHY AM I DOING THIS to my brain? After a few years of taking lessons I started noticing that getting off the horse on the days that I did more than 6 strides of the sitting trot that walking on my own two feet was harder, that I needed both my canes to walk with any security, and my thinking was more confused until after I got a really good nap in, and then a really good nights sleep.

I have seen the MRIs of my brain (several of them over the last 30 years). My brain does not fit tightly into my skull. There is plenty of area that is just filled with fluid for my brain to move in. My body finally convinced me that even though I really liked to do the sitting trot that it was a really bad idea for me. I think my husband was relieved when I stopped because I got really bitchy at times, which improved greatly after I gave up on doing much sitting trot.

From what I have read many people’s brains shrink as they age. Because of my MS it happened much earlier than usual for me. As the brain stops filling the skull completely it takes less force to get the brain sloshing forward and back. Babies’ brains fill the skull much better than my brain fills my skull. I have been watching my brain over decades of MRIs, there is always more space between my brain and skull in the MRIs.

This is why I spent money I really could not afford at that time on the Trauma Void helmet, doing anything I could to reduce the chance of my brain slamming into my skull, however gently it might slam into it. I gave up on jumping (not fair to the horse), I gave up on galloping because after 6 strides I am completely exhausted and find it hard to stay in the saddle. I do all I can to protect my brain when I ride because if I do not ride horses I gradually lose my ability to walk on my own feet with any kind of security.

Sorry you can’t believe me about this. I have talked with at least two neurologists about this and they always tell me to proceed carefully, and what I am doing presently while riding horses is helping my mobility. THEY do not scoff at me when I tell them I stop a certain activity because my body tells me it is not good for my brain, they agree when I tell them when I change my riding and why, and they tell me it is a good idea for me to listen to my body. My neurologists have also seen my MRIs and seen the shrinkage of my brain even from 25 years ago. This is just normal for people with MS, and people who achieve old age.