Correctness: Buttons vs. Colors

[mvp]

Here’s an Emily Post-type question for you guys. It comes in layers.

The question:

If you are awarded your buttons as a junior, do you automatically acquire colors when you become an adult? Or are colors awarded (if earned) separately?

My scenario:

I hunted with a recognized hunt as a kid off and on. I was the “surrogate daughter” of a hunting family (only dad rode out) all the way through college and first year of grad school. He paid a full hunting membership (no family membership) and I was allowed to pay for the junior membership that I could afford.

While I was in college, they awarded me my buttons for all of the normal reasons-- I learned the territories, rode well enough, wasn’t a PITA.

Their inspiration and mine:

I assume the buttons-not-colors came from the membership I paid and gave credit to members of a similar age who paid full hunting memberships. I think more was expected of them as well in terms of social things–hosting parties, being on hunt ball committees and all. To most hunt members, I think I was permanently 14 years old.

On to now:

That’s all cool with me, and to date (years and years later), I have the buttons on my hunt coat but have never adopted the color or other parts of the “colors” uniform.

Do I continue that way? Do I list “awarded buttons by X hunt” on any kind of horsey resume I’d create? Or do I drop the designation between colors and buttons in writing or in uniform?

If you earned colors with more than one hunt, or buttons with one and colors with another, what do you guys wear or do about that?

Yours in painstaking propriety,

mvp

[Beverley]

I guess I’ll take a crack at answering it in layers! With a caveat- it all boils down to how the hunt does things, regardless of what the ‘universal’ tradition might be.

In my experience with the couple of hunts I earned my colors at, those who earned colors as a junior and came back years later to hunt as an adult were absolutely welcomed back and encouraged to wear what they had earned long ago. As an aside it’s well known that the juniors outride the adults anyway so it seems silly to think that a junior might be ‘less capable’ or ‘less worthy.’ Earning colors is earning colors. Now- here is the tricky part I’m not quite parsing from your question. I think I am understanding you to say that the hunt in question has two levels of awards- buttons and then colors? If that is the case, I would say you are entitled to continue to wear the buttons you earned but no, not wearing the colors unless those come your way via the standard awarding process.

Now, it goes the other way too. I have ‘colors’ with two foxhound packs and one beagle pack (this last, because they are the oldest pack in the US, just has buttons, no collar.) Though I am not presently a member of any hunt, I can wear the buttons of the hunts where I previously earned colors- but must wear a plain black collar, not the colors of either of those hunts, 'cause I’m not a current member. If I were to go back and join one of them again, yes, I’d be entitled to put the collar back on, even 20 years later. Now, that can get a little tricky- hunts aren’t very good at keeping records and so if membership has changed completely, there might be no institutional recollection that you hunted there previously. And in that case I would boldly ask the Master if I may resume wearing colors. The right answer from the Master is yes, of course, but hey, Master can give wrong answer and I either cheerfully ride w/o the colors or stay home(but I’m keeping the buttons on and the Master can just live with that, I am way too lazy to redo the buttons:cool:).

Is that clear as mud? Oh, I should add, on those rare occasions when I’m asked to whip in and wear scarlet- well, I still have the collar from last pack where I whipped in sewn on- so I just ask forgiveness and it’s always given, and I know the hunt in question back east won’t mind.

[mvp]

That does help, Beverley, thanks.

To answer your question. No, I don’t think buttons and colors denoted anything different in terms of skill or “good egg”-ness. It’s just that kids never got all the regalia that comes with colors-- scarlet coat and the rest for boys and patent leather-topped boots for girls.

I can’t remember now, but I think it was explained to me that these uniforms that allowed all to distinguish experienced hunt members at a glance helped everyone out. Noobs could see which folks to follow through trappy country. The MFH, or even Whips or Huntsman could easily tell which horse/rider could be sent to do a job and get it done. There weren’t lots of kids, so it wasn’t a big deal and I don’t remember being around to see what the kids who hunted forever with their parents did as they got to 18 or so.

Also, the Powers That Were when I was around this hunter were aging. I’m sure several administrations later, no one would remember what I was given and why way back then.

[Beverley]

Well, by way of clarification, it is certainly true that juniors with colors continue to wear standard junior clothing- plain three button melton jacket etc. But- in my experience they do (or did) wear both the buttons and the collar.

If, awarded colors as juniors they eventually grew up continuously hunting, then sure, when they turn 21, they are entitled to wear those buttons and colors on the appropriate ‘adult’ attire. To put it another way, colors or not isn’t the issue, there is appropriate junior attire and appropriate adult attire. Sure, once in those adult clothes, there are subtle differences depending on whether one has one’s colors or not- but colors is not something you ‘age out’ of.

[FitToBeTied]

I’ll disagree that it is proper to wear the buttons of a hunt of which are not currently a member. Buttons whether part of “colors” or a separate honor are given to and worn by members. If you are not a current member you are not entitled to wear them just as you are not entitled to the colors.

Like Beverly I’ve been awarded colors at multiple hunts. I do not currently hold a membership anywhere and am capping in this season. Even when I cap with one of the hunts where I earned colors I wear a black melton with plain black buttons.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Beverley;6022429]

If, awarded colors as juniors they eventually grew up continuously hunting, then sure, when they turn 21, they are entitled to wear those buttons and colors on the appropriate ‘adult’ attire. To put it another way, colors or not isn’t the issue, there is appropriate junior attire and appropriate adult attire. Sure, once in those adult clothes, there are subtle differences depending on whether one has one’s colors or not- but colors is not something you ‘age out’ of.[/QUOTE]

No, you don’t age out of colors. Our hunt fixture described the uniform for juniors and adults, IIRC, with “buttons” being different dress from colors. I don’t remember any buttons-to-colors thing (written policy or ceremony) for buttoned kids who reached the age of majority. They did do first blood for kids when the opportunity presented itself.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=FitToBeTied;6022766]
I’ll disagree that it is proper to wear the buttons of a hunt of which are not currently a member. Buttons whether part of “colors” or a separate honor are given to and worn by members. If you are not a current member you are not entitled to wear them just as you are not entitled to the colors.[/QUOTE]

Good to know! I have hunted and shown with the buttons on my coat because, well, they were there.

I also assumed that buttons or colors were like a PhD. You hold that degree for the rest of your life. You don’t always refer to yourself as Dr. or Prof… There are rules for when you are Dr. or Prof, or Mr., Mrs., Ms.

But in academia, you do wear the regalia of your degree-granting institution in ceremonies that require that.

So if you put the earned colors or buttons on your horsey resume–after all, they were earned and do denote some kind of skill-- do you list that as buttons or colors since they mean the same thing there? I guess I take the “colors” with a hunt seriously because I was taught that they did indicate a horsemen you could trust if you needed help in the field.

[Beverley]

@FitToBeTied;6022766

I’ll disagree that it is proper to wear the buttons of a hunt of which are not currently a member. Buttons whether part of “colors” or a separate honor are given to and worn by members. If you are not a current member you are not entitled to wear them just as you are not entitled to the colors.

So, we disagree. I am only sharing my experience at a number of hunts, plus what was drummed into my head by old-timers/etiquette nazis when I started hunting in 1971.

But I repeat the caveat stated in my first post- traditions aside, it boils down to the rules of engagement for each particular hunt (and those are subject to change as Masters changes, as well).

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Beverley;6023381]

But I repeat the caveat stated in my first post- traditions aside, it boils down to the rules of engagement for each particular hunt (and those are subject to change as Masters changes, as well).[/QUOTE]

So… whatever is printed in a the current hunt fixture is what I follow? That’s regardless of what was true when I was given my buttons. Questions go to the hunt secretary who forwards them to the Master?

Frankly, I’d be embarrassed to Emily Post-it with these guys. I was using the cover of anonymity and hoping that there was one Official Way Of Doing Things out there that I just didn’t know.

[Beverley]

If it were me, I’d just call and ask the Master in an aw-shucks but polite sort of way- wanting to do the right thing and I know what applied back in the day but hey, you are the Master now so I want to get it from The Source of All Wisdom.

[KateDB]

I’m with Beverley in that you should really consult the specific hunt, since every one is different.
However, in general, I would state that buttons and colors are NOT the same thing, so you can’t morph junior buttons into adult colors. Afterall, buttons are NOT necessarily given just to juniors. I know of some hunts where they are given to adults, sometimes social members, as a medium step in acknowledging their efforts.

Definitely if you are not currently a member of a hunt and you cap with any hunt (including the the one which awarded your buttons), that you do not assume you may wear them…back to the ASK the appropriate folks.

IF you are a re-newed member of the hunt where you were awarded buttons as a “junior”, then it should be appropriate to wear those buttons as an adult…but still worth asking, afterall MFHs change and it’s not worth people scratching their heads and questioning you…it’s better to lay it out on the table.

[lizathenag]

If you can fit in the coat with your junior colors…

I think you should be able to wear them.

note: I am kidding. I don’t even know where any of my wonderful hunting clothes from the 60s are. My canary britches with a million buttons on the leg and my canary vest. The junior colors on the collar were a trim around the edge.

I still have my three fold girth however. And I still use it. And I still have my ladies hunting whip.

[FitToBeTied]

I was having lunch with a couple of friends today, one of which is a past secretary of a hunt. At least at that hunt, wearing the buttons while not a member would be considered improper.

I think it would be best to ask ahead of time.

[Beverley]

FitToBeTied,

Indeed I am also a past hunt secretary as well. (Where a 're-member- returning from years of riding as a junior after a 15 year hiatus was welcomed back with open arms and full colors.)

Mind you, I don’t consider that having served as honorary secretary-treasurer makes me an authority, in fact I once watched a hunt secretary at another hunt dress down a junior at a cubhunting meet, completely inappropriately, saying her coat was all wrong. It wasn’t, and after reducing that poor girl to tears, he in turn got dressed down by the MFH.

But we do all agree- just check with the particular hunt.

[Kryswyn]

Rule no. 1: Traditional hunting attire etiquette can be found in Wadsworth’s Hunting to Hounds in America and should be followed religiously.

Rule no. 2: Rule no. 1 means nothing anymore. Hunts LOVE members that obey rule no. 1, but in this day of trying to hold onto memberships, and grow them, pretty much you can wear what you want, albeit if you check with the Master/s first. I know hunts which have allowed 1st year MEMBERS to hunt in western tack, flannels shirts and chaps. Landowners have always been allowed leeway also. I know a master who let a 1st year landowner wear a blue frock coat because she told the Master, “I look awful in black and frocks fit my figure so much better.”

That being said, buttons are not colors, but one can be awarded buttons separately (usually just one is given by the club and you buy the rest yourself). Colors are often awarded with buttons but not always.

Because of rule no. 2, most hunts will let you cap wearing your buttons and colors from you home hunt, but to be truly correct, every foxhunter should keep their original black or dark navy melton with plain buttons to wear when capping.

For some hunts it’s all about the money the particular member can bring in, or how often they’re willing to host hunt breakfasts. For other hunts that maybe have wealthier Master/s a member might actually have to wait 5-7 years and attend a LOT of workdays before being awarded colors/buttons or both.

YMMV

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Kryswyn;6027243]
Rule no. 1: Traditional hunting attire etiquette can be found in Wadsworth’s Hunting to Hounds in America and should be followed religiously.

Rule no. 2: Rule no. 1 means nothing anymore. Hunts LOVE members that obey rule no. 1, but in this day of trying to hold onto memberships, and grow them, pretty much you can wear what you want, albeit if you check with the Master/s first. I know hunts which have allowed 1st year MEMBERS to hunt in western tack, flannels shirts and chaps. Landowners have always been allowed leeway also. I know a master who let a 1st year landowner wear a blue frock coat because she told the Master, “I look awful in black and frocks fit my figure so much better.”

That being said, buttons are not colors, but one can be awarded buttons separately (usually just one is given by the club and you buy the rest yourself). Colors are often awarded with buttons but not always.

Because of rule no. 2, most hunts will let you cap wearing your buttons and colors from you home hunt, but to be truly correct, every foxhunter should keep their original black or dark navy melton with plain buttons to wear when capping.[/QUOTE]

I have even seen the Wadsworth Bible.

I have also seen hunts bend all kinds of rules for various reasons-- some good, some bad. Cutting land owners plenty of slack always counts as a good reason. Making allowances for the incredibly wealthy member who literally ran out of known bits she could use to control her horse? Not my cup of tea.

@Beverley;6023684

If it were me, I’d just call and ask the Master in an aw-shucks but polite sort of way- wanting to do the right thing and I know what applied back in the day but hey, you are the Master now so I want to get it from The Source of All Wisdom.

Yes, ma’am. This strikes me as the always correct way to go.

I appreciate the clue about not wearing any buttons/colors if I am not currently a member of the hunt I’m joining for a day or season.